New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[joncombe]

When I'm travelling on Southern and most seats are taken, I prefer to sit on the metal luggage rack than the middle seat. It's more spacious and not exactly that much less comfortable than the other seats in my opinion.

When I used to commute in the peaks to London (in the days of the VEPs) I always opted to stand in preference to sitting in the middle seat of 3. I wasn't the only one. There wasnt any "stand in the vestibule" option on those trains, of course!

As to 442s vs 450s I remember being pretty annoyed when my usual train home (17:48 Waterloo - Southampton) was changed from 10x442 to 8x450. I appreciate if we're talking 12x450 to 10x444/442 then it's perhaps a little different, but I would personally prefer the 444/442 option over 450s because if you do manage to get a seat at least it will be comfortable.

 

[radamfi]

If no 3+2 stock is planned for the future, could we expect future refurbishments to replace 3+2 with 2+2? It was done for 319s on Thameslink and for the Connex Express around 1999 ish.

 

[3141]

When I'm travelling on Southern and most seats are taken, I prefer to sit on the metal luggage rack than the middle seat. It's more spacious and not exactly that much less comfortable than the other seats in my opinion.

Has there ever been a time when someone has their case on the seat next to them and you're sitting in the luggage rack?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

An accessible toilet and all the associated manoeuvring room outside it takes out more like 12 seats.

What if the existing accessible bog was replaced with one that meets the regs?

 

[swt_passenger]

Playing devils advocate here, could Network Rail's assumption be wrong?

When I'm travelling on Southern and most seats are taken, I prefer to sit on the metal luggage rack than the middle seat. It's more spacious and not exactly that much less comfortable than the other seats in my opinion.

Network Rail are doing the calculations to provide DfTs capacity targets, not to satisfy people's personal preferences.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't access that article, what is the basis for First being tipped to win the franchise?

Sorry to say that going from 12-450 to 10-442 will very much be a backward step.

Apparently First were the only TPE bidder not to propose using loco-hauled 442s. If they rejected DfT's suggested 442 option for TPE, would they really propose it for SWT given DfT haven't suggested it?

 

[infobleep]

Has there ever been a time when someone has their case on the seat next to them and you're sitting in the luggage rack?

Not that I can remember but I don't check every seat in the train, just enough until I see the luggage rack free. If I am in a coach without and I see a free middle seat, I might take that.

Bear in mind I'm not starting at the beginning of the trains journey. If someone did have luggage on their seat already then they should be using the luggage rack in the first place. I doubt they'd be thinking I must keep it free as a seat. They are probably thinking I don't want to part with my luggage. I've had people not want to part with their luggage and it's taking up space.

The only thing would be if they got on after me and wished to use it but didn't like to say.

If someone had a bag on the aside seat already and I saw it, I would likely ask them to move it so I could sit down.

I once asked a lady to move her luggage off her seat. Another time I asked a lady if you would take her dog off a seat so I could sit down. She said but the dogs ill do you mimd. I replied yes as I have ankylosing spondylitis. Whether she'd heard of that I don't know but she didn't protest further. The dog seemed quite happy on her lap. Why wouldn't they. They usually love human affection.

 

[infobleep]

Network Rail are doing the calculations to provide DfTs capacity targets, not to satisfy people's personal preferences.

Thanks for that. To be fair fitting more people on a train is cheaper than being able to run more trains.

So argument could be that it makes sense to make the trains as packed as possible before upgrading anything else.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks for that. To be fair fitting more people on a train is cheaper than being able to run more trains.

So argument could be that it makes sense to make the trains as packed as possible before upgrading anything else.

That's exactly how the section reads, I will try and find a link to it later, I'm sure I put it in a previous thread.

 

[fgwrich]

Fair point, my experience of Hitachi kit is limited, though the Javelins look very good to me. What is my experience is that Bombardier and Alstom trains have noticeably lower build quality than Siemens. Electrostars in particular are quite flimsy.

The one exception to that is the S-stock which seems very well bolted together. Perhaps Bombardier is bucking its ideas up?

Sadly, I'm going to let you down on that last comment - had an S Stock last night with a few of the advert hinges swinging loose and a small panel swinging open and closing as freely as possible. Just when you think they've finally bucked their ideas up...

Hitachis Javelins get an lowly ok from me. They look impressive but are sadly let down by Bombardier style interior qualities - fake steel plastic trim, plastic panels, seats and PA - and their earlier ride quality issues which I feel still hasn't completely been resolved. Siemens does leave the build quality of all 3 way behind it - and I'm very impressed and pleased to see it continuing in the Desiro City family, but I'd put Alston before the other two with Derby still languishing at the bottom - partly for continually failing to recognise its own faults.

What potential new stock either bidder has for the SW franchise remains to be seen, but I'd rather happily continue to see new stock from Siemens for the South Western.

 

[philthetube]

Sadly, I'm going to let you down on that last comment - had an S Stock last night with a few of the advert hinges swinging loose and a small panel swinging open and closing as freely as possible. Just when you think they've finally bucked their ideas up...

The Advert hinges are held by magnets, they don't swing loose unless assisted. The small panel is almost certainly due to staff error, again not a train fault.

 

[bb21]

Thanks for that. To be fair fitting more people on a train is cheaper than being able to run more trains.

So argument could be that it makes sense to make the trains as packed as possible before upgrading anything else.

I don't quite understand.

You physically cannot run more trains into Waterloo, so with many trains in maximum formation allowed, I'm not sure what else can be done.

 

[bb21]

Ask an awful lot of south WCML commuters and they'll tell you that they would prefer 2+2 even if that means sometimes they may not get a seat. When they do get a seat, it'll be more comfortable.

You've even got the "hybrid" possibility of 2+2 but with narrow seats which allows more standing room and isn't as nasty as there is no middle seat.

3+2 is seriously sub-optimal and has had its day.

I understand your point, although if you look at loadings of peak arrivals and departures of Portsmouth services at Waterloo you will quickly understand what I mean.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Advert hinges are held by magnets, they don't swing loose unless assisted. The small panel is almost certainly due to staff error, again not a train fault.

Some new staff from the bus industry, most of whom apparently can't be bothered locking all the panels on both sides and just leave them rattling around on near enough every bus I go on?

I often see this as a symptom of the complete lack of attention to detail and quality that pervades the bus industry.

 

[HH]

Apparently First were the only TPE bidder not to propose using loco-hauled 442s. If they rejected DfT's suggested 442 option for TPE, would they really propose it for SWT given DfT haven't suggested it?

I struggle to follow your logic. Let's say I rejected hiring an electric car for travel in the Scottish Highlands; does that mean I won't consider one for driving around London?

 

[The Ham]

I struggle to follow your logic. Let's say I rejected hiring an electric car for travel in the Scottish Highlands; does that mean I won't consider one for driving around London?

Quite, it could be that there now isn't any option for new rolling stock early enough within the franchise to allow new build to be a viable option.

Likewise, it could be that it was suggested that new build on the DMU services wouldn't gain any advantage to the determination of the franchise (I.e. someone hinting that electrification could possibly be on the cards so that it may come into play for determining the following franchise).

As yet we don't know what form the 442's may take and where they will be used. It could be that the motor coach is gone and they are formed up as 9 coach rakes and strengthen or replace the 158s/159s. It could be that they retain the motor coach and then pick up a loco before going off the electrified network or are used for services that don't run into London (I.e. along the south coast or Ascot to Guildford) so as to limit the impact of they break.

If used as an EMU I fear there may be some who might realise just how pink a hue their glasses have acquired.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

For the Portsmouth-Waterloo route if the loadings really are busy all the time, what about another order of 707s but with bogs installed?

 

[infobleep]

I don't quite understand.

You physically cannot run more trains into Waterloo, so with many trains in maximum formation allowed, I'm not sure what else can be done.

Add another line between Surbtion and Waterloo has been talked about. Then there is Crossrail 2 taking away people and freeing up paths for other trains. These not are going to happen soon though and I'm not sure if either of them have been signed off as yes you can happen.

I lose track of at what stage things are at times, as I read so much on here. [No pun intended there]

 

[infobleep]

For the Portsmouth-Waterloo route if the loadings really are busy all the time, what about another order of 707s but with bogs installed?

Perhaps they could just order some additional 700s. I don't know if that's possible at all. The model does have loos. No WiFi yet or plug sockets, bar plug sockets in first class and declassified first class.

 

[J-2739]

Perhaps they could just order some additional 700s. I don't know if that's possible at all. The model does have loos. No WiFi yet or plug sockets, bar plug sockets in first class and declassified first class.

The Desiro City, being a flexibe design, will allow customers to customise the design to their taste.

Since SWT are not bound by Dft requirements, SWT could make a combo of WiFi, plug sockets and even fold up tables.

 

[pompeyfan]

If there was sufficient capacity then the solution would be to run Portsmouth trains as 10/444, but add in extras fast Haslemere calling only at WOK, GLD, FNC and GOD made of 12/450s. That way the longer distance traffic separates itself from the Surrey lot. The problem with this though is that there's already 4 departures an hour to Haslemere, and the signalling can't handle much more between Guildford and Haslemere as fasts already chase slows. It's a tricky one to fix.

 

[infobleep]

The Desiro City, being a flexibe design, will allow customers to customise the design to their taste.

Since SWT are not bound by Dft requirements, SWT could make a combo of WiFi, plug sockets and even fold up tables.

Would such modifications automatically give it a new class number?

 

[infobleep]

If there was sufficient capacity then the solution would be to run Portsmouth trains as 10/444, but add in extras fast Haslemere calling only at WOK, GLD, FNC and GOD made of 12/450s. That way the longer distance traffic separates itself from the Surrey lot. The problem with this though is that there's already 4 departures an hour to Haslemere, and the signalling can't handle much more between Guildford and Haslemere as fasts already chase slows. It's a tricky one to fix.

Could the signalling handle just one extra train an hour in either direction or is even that pushing it?

During the morning peak beteeem 7am and 8sm you get 5 trains through Guildford to Waterloo. Between 8 and 9 it is 4 as there is a stopper that starts from Guildford rather than coming from the south.

They also run one of the fast trains via Cobham in the morning peak. So maybe that could be possible too.

Of course running such extra trains might put more pressure on Clapham Junction, with the eventual result, if so many ran, that no fast trains could stop there. That use to be the case for many years anyway. At least according to my old timetable books from the 1940s to 1960s

 

[infobleep]

According to a member of SWT tweeter staff just now, they said they are working towards staffing their Tweeter feed 24/7.

I wouldn't have thought a rail company would want to work towards something they might not end up doing if they lose a franchise or are they obliged to work towards things even if there's a chance they might lose the franchise?

I don't want SWT to lose, even if they did badly on the communication front last night. No one is perfect. Hopefully if they win the franchise they can work towards finding a way of avoid last night's communication difficulties, aka lack of communication late at night when people are catching their last trains or connecting trains home.

 

[J-2739]

Would such modifications automatically give it a new class number?

Nope don't think so. It'd probably be a Class 707 subclass.

 

[Chris M]

Would such modifications automatically give it a new class number?

I suspect it will depend on whether they are compatible with the existing units (operating system, speed and braking profiles, same couplers, that sort of thing) or not. If they can run in multiple with no issues then most likely I'd expect them to be a subclass, if they are not able to be formed into a single in-service passenger train then a new class designation is more likely.
e.g. 150/0 and 150/1 differ quite signficiantly in appearance but are subclasses, whereas 170 and 171 differ only in couplers and so are different classes.

 

[Suraggu]

What do we know so far?

With the DfT dwell times for loading/unloading at suburban stations the 455/456 fleet look unlikely to meet those targets for the next franchise.

Tenders were put out by Stagecoach for brand new rolling stock.

And one news article stating First/MTR are likely to win, so basically we wait on baited breath.

 

[Goldfish62]

The Desiro City, being a flexibe design, will allow customers to customise the design to their taste.

Since SWT are not bound by Dft requirements, SWT could make a combo of WiFi, plug sockets and even fold up tables.

The 707s have WiFi and plug sockets in any case.

 

[infobleep]

What do we know so far?

With the DfT dwell times for loading/unloading at suburban stations the 455/456 fleet look unlikely to meet those targets for the next franchise.

Tenders were put out by Stagecoach for brand new rolling stock.

And one news article stating First/MTR are likely to win, so basically we wait on baited breath.

Would be interesting if they lost, given they have put out the tenders. Would the tenders need to be redone if a new company took over. I know it's the same staff below but it's a different franchise holding company.

 

[Suraggu]

Would be interesting if they lost, given they have put out the tenders. Would the tenders need to be redone if a new company took over. I know it's the same staff below but it's a different franchise holding company.

I am sure First/MTR would have put out tenders as well.