New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[bb21]

Sorry to say that going from 12-450 to 10-442 will very much be a backward step.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Quite possibly. 450s provide more seats, but such a move would be very popular with those who (quite rightly in my view) see 3+2 seated 450s as unsuitable.

Worth bearing in mind, though, that a compliant accessible bog will need adding, which will reduce capacity a bit.

Possibly 4 seats would have to be taken off the number of standard class seats for the installation of a accessible bog (don't know what size the current accessible bog is compared to what one that meets the standards is)

 

[Suraggu]

But in the grand scheme of the Pompey Direct service, running many trains through the off peak as 4 or 5 car is more than adequate. Bolstering those services would be pointless.

 

[infobleep]

Sorry to say that going from 12-450 to 10-442 will very much be a backward step.

In terms of capacity it would be, looking at the figures. Of course when the 707s are introduced and stock gets cascaded, I can't see it leasing to an decrease in use of the 450s on the Portsmouth to Waterloo via Haslemere line.

 

[HH]

*If* First do win the South Western franchise, could it be a prelude to GTR being "relieved" of Southern, and Stagecoach selected to run that? As a supplementary, in that case would First want to keep the Desiros, or look to (5 years down the line) replace them with stock of their choosing?

I know the counter question is "why wouldn't they want to keep them?". Whatever, I think it's going to be a surprising couple of months.

There is no possible way that Stagecoach could be given GTR.

First don't seem keen on Desiros at the moment, so they might replace them as it would be a "whole fleet" decision. If so it would more likely be three years than five.

 

[infobleep]

Possibly 4 seats would have to be taken off the number of standard class seats for the installation of a accessible bog (don't know what size the current accessible bog is compared to what one that meets the standards is)

That's not much when you consider that their is a buffet space on the 444s that's rarely used and takes up seating space.

 

[infobleep]

How do people rate GWR compared to SWT? I personally wanted Stagecoach to win it again. If they don't I wonder what, GWR offered that was better? More premiums to the DfT? I don't know how it works.

I find the North Downs Line can be variable at times. Late running trains lead to Redhill to Gatwick part being cut. They never seem to cut the Wokingham to Reading section though, even though that's duplicated with South West Trains service. In those cases they then to skip stops between Guildford and Reading to gain bavk lost time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no possible way that Stagecoach could be given GTR.

First don't seem keen on Desiros at the moment, so they might replace them as it would be a "whole fleet" decision. If so it would more likely be three years than five.

First aren't keen on 185s due to many specific problems with them (from experience, they ordered them) - overweight, poor layout, undercapacity. Classes 350, 450 and 444 don't have the same issues, and by all accounts are high quality and good at what they do.

 

[HH]

First aren't keen on 185s due to many specific problems with them (from experience, they ordered them) - overweight, poor layout, undercapacity. Classes 350, 450 and 444 don't have the same issues, and by all accounts are high quality and good at what they do.

And the Class 707s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry to say that going from 12-450 to 10-442 will very much be a backward step.

How? 3+2 seating is unsuitable for longer journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the Class 707s?

As 455 replacements I can't see any issues with them, you?

 

[HH]

As 455 replacements I can't see any issues with them, you?

It's a small fleet as it stands. Therefore you are either going to have to increase the numbers ordered or make it part of the cascade out. In such cases I would expect the decision to be purely financial. From past experience Siemens are rarely the cheapest option. They're a bit like Stella Artois.

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder if it's true. It was widely believed that Keolis was the winner of East Coast and First for Thameslink, Southern etc. Maybe the actual article will indicate how firm the story is.

Yet one source did report Virgin/Stagecoach for the EC franchise. Some people are more cautious in what they say than others e.g. one source reported Govia had lost out in the Northern bidding and Stagecoach had lost out in the TPE bidding rather than trying to claim Arriva and First would win.

When is the franchise award supposed to be announced?

 

[superalbs]

When is the franchise award supposed to be announced?

Some time in April.

 

[Joe Paxton]

DfT won't be pleased.

Anyone have a copy - there's also an interesting piece by Dean Finch on why NEG sold c2c.

The Dean Finch piece is online here (it's not by him, but about what he has said - unless there is another piece in the magazine actually written by him?).

Interesting read.

 

[pompeyfan]

442s would be preferred by the passengers that actually get a seat, but would lead to more people standing. Rolling stock isn't the issue on SWT network, there's enough desiros to go around running at maximum length (with the exception of unplanned maintenance), as has been said multiple times. The issue is that there are physically not enough paths between Waterloo & Woking -> Basingstoke/Guildford. How many times have the regulars been on a train running on restrictive aspects and lost time between the two? There's too many people trying to commute into London at work hours and the infrastructure cannot take many, if any, extra trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's a small fleet as it stands. Therefore you are either going to have to increase the numbers ordered or make it part of the cascade out. In such cases I would expect the decision to be purely financial. From past experience Siemens are rarely the cheapest option. They're a bit like Stella Artois.

Buy cheap, buy twice.

 

[swt_passenger]

Possibly 4 seats would have to be taken off the number of standard class seats for the installation of a accessible bog (don't know what size the current accessible bog is compared to what one that meets the standards is)

An accessible toilet and all the associated manoeuvring room outside it takes out more like 12 seats.

 

[swt_passenger]

In terms of capacity it would be, looking at the figures. Of course when the 707s are introduced and stock gets cascaded, I can't see it leasing to an decrease in use of the 450s on the Portsmouth to Waterloo via Haslemere line.

It has been regularly discussed (and stated by SWT employees posting here) that the existing post 707 cascade plan WILL mean more 12.450s running vice 10.444s.

It isn't a possibility, its more of a fact.

 

[bb21]

How? 3+2 seating is unsuitable for longer journeys.

One word - capacity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One word - capacity.

Ask an awful lot of south WCML commuters and they'll tell you that they would prefer 2+2 even if that means sometimes they may not get a seat. When they do get a seat, it'll be more comfortable.

You've even got the "hybrid" possibility of 2+2 but with narrow seats which allows more standing room and isn't as nasty as there is no middle seat.

3+2 is seriously sub-optimal and has had its day.

 

[swt_passenger]

3+2 is seriously sub-optimal and has had its day.

So you keep saying, and it may well be true for metro routes where standing is expected, but it is still not the assumption being made by Network Rail when considering outer suburban capacity in recent Route Studies. Such as for the Wessex route, where they are still proposing more 12 car 2+3 seated units in the peaks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you keep saying, and it may well be true for metro routes where standing is expected, but it is still not the assumption being made by Network Rail when considering outer suburban capacity in recent Route Studies. Such as for the Wessex route, where they are still proposing more 12 car 2+3 seated units in the peaks.

Are attitudes sarf ov da Rivva really different? Or should they pay more attention to attitudes on the south WCML?

I did notice, having done a commute involving both, that people were more likely to sit in a middle seat on GWR than LM. It does seem to me that people do want the middle seat when the standing density gets too great. It's almost like the preference is window/aisle seat, then vestibule standing provided there are no more than about 6 in the vestibule, then middle seat, then standing in the saloon. It's rare for any LM commuter[1] train to get beyond the "vestibule standing" stage, particularly if you are willing to walk to the front at Euston.

[1] Some Saturday/Sunday 4-car stopping trains are actually worse, but attitudes there are different, and sitting adult-kid-adult in the 3 side of 3+2 is fine, indeed the groups of 6 are very popular with families and I have heard complaints from such groups when a /1 shows up.

 

[bramling]

Ask an awful lot of south WCML commuters and they'll tell you that they would prefer 2+2 even if that means sometimes they may not get a seat. When they do get a seat, it'll be more comfortable.

You've even got the "hybrid" possibility of 2+2 but with narrow seats which allows more standing room and isn't as nasty as there is no middle seat.

3+2 is seriously sub-optimal and has had its day.

Have you any evidence to base the theory that WCML users would prefer to stand than have 2+3?

I see it as '*I* would prefer 2+2 as long as it's *someone else* having to stand'. This isn't quite the same thing!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you any evidence to base the theory that WCML users would prefer to stand than have 2+3?

I see it as '*I* would prefer 2+2 as long as it's *someone else* having to stand'. This isn't quite the same thing!

Extensive travel on the south WCML at many times of day, and observation of empty middle seats in coaches with a not insubstantial standing load.

I don't have photographs, but if anyone else wishes to observe this taking place it's visible on most evening peak services out of Euston. Though curiously (on weekdays) Tring stoppers are more likely to have the middle seats occupied than other trains.

 

[HH]

Buy cheap, buy twice.

Hitachi trains (for example) aren't cheap. Just cheaper than Siemens. And often it's not the unit themselves, it's all the extras...

 

[radamfi]

I see it as '*I* would prefer 2+2 as long as it's *someone else* having to stand'. This isn't quite the same thing!

I personally would rather stand than squash into the middle seat. Indeed, if an average or larger sized person tries to sit in the middle and I'm sat at the window then I will stand as squashing next to someone is unacceptably intimate. It also doesn't work too well on the other side as placing my bum part way off the seat into the aisle to avoid excessive intimacy is not very comfortable.

 

[HH]

The trouble with the 3 seats is that the person who wants to sit down on the middle usually seems to be XXXL!

But seriously, loads of people stand on my trains rather than sit in the third seat.

 

[infobleep]

So you keep saying, and it may well be true for metro routes where standing is expected, but it is still not the assumption being made by Network Rail when considering outer suburban capacity in recent Route Studies. Such as for the Wessex route, where they are still proposing more 12 car 2+3 seated units in the peaks.

Playing devils advocate here, could Network Rail's assumption be wrong?

When I'm travelling on Southern and most seats are taken, I prefer to sit on the metal luggage rack than the middle seat. It's more spacious and not exactly that much less comfortable than the other seats in my opinion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hitachi trains (for example) aren't cheap. Just cheaper than Siemens. And often it's not the unit themselves, it's all the extras...

Fair point, my experience of Hitachi kit is limited, though the Javelins look very good to me. What is my experience is that Bombardier and Alstom trains have noticeably lower build quality than Siemens. Electrostars in particular are quite flimsy.

The one exception to that is the S-stock which seems very well bolted together. Perhaps Bombardier is bucking its ideas up?