Hitachi to win IEP bid on Tuesday??

[Chafford1]

From the Railway Eye blog website:

"Sushi and Sake all round at Marsham Street Monday night is the word
on the tracks, with an announcement on Tuesday morning.

But only a small initial order.

Unless the Treasury bins it again"

So it's looking like Hitachi will win the initial order - for ECML only??


Nigel Harris's blog on the 'Rail' website has also suggested an announcement on the preferred bidder for IEP next week:

"Next week could be fun as the jungle drums are saying that we’ll finally have an announcement about the long-gestated (£15m spent thus far and counting, with damn-all to show for it…) ‘IEP’ HST replacement train from the DfT."

Agility Trains (Hitachi)

Express Rail Alliance (Siemens/Bombardier)

 

[Pumbaa]

Well - at last a decision, but maybe a small batch is right if all this high-speed line building is to go ahead.

But again I say that Hitachi is the wrong candidate - keep the construction in Europe etc. They must be a lot cheaper than ERA. Didn't they submit 2 bids? One following the spec to the letter, one a bit cheaper?

 

[Chafford1]

I would guess the pre-series ECML trains will be the
ones initially ordered. The original plan was for 3 full length 'bi-
mode' trains (i.e. 9 + 1 diesel powertrain), 3 half length 5 car
electric trains and 3 half length 'bi-mode' (4+ 1) trains but that may
have changed.

I would expect to see some kind of construction in the UK as part of the deal.

 

[222001]

Why are they replaceing the 91 and MK4 trains on the ECML first. Seems a bit stupid as the youngest are only currently 18 years old!
They should be concentrating on the HST replacement first as these are around ten years older. Isn't there only one HST set that is under the wires for it's entire diagram? If so that is one replaced. Big wow!

Unless they do go for bi-mode trains which in my opinion is the way foreward.

 

[alpha_9]

The whole thing is a bit of a farce if you ask me. I can almost see it going belly up like the APT before it.

 

[Daimler]

Am I right in understanding from all this that any new train produced will effectively have powered bogies on each coach - effectively a multiple unit?

And I'd be very disappointed if it wasn't even made in Europe (preferably here).

I'd also second 222001's question on why the IC225s are going to be replaced first - surely the HSTs need a replacement sooner - or is this initial order designed to replace East Coast's HSTs? A nice loco-hauled replacement for the Pendolinos & Voyagers would be top of my 'to do' list in actual fact, but that's not going to happen...

 

[alpha_9]

Am I right in understanding from all this that any new train produced will effectively have powered bogies on each coach - effectively a multiple unit?

And I'd be very disappointed if it wasn't even made in Europe (preferably here).

I'd also second 222001's question on why the IC225s are going to be replaced first - surely the HSTs need a replacement sooner - or is this initial order designed to replace East Coast's HSTs? A nice loco-hauled replacement for the Pendolinos & Voyagers would be top of my 'to do' list in actual fact, but that's not going to happen...

Haha, what I wouldn't give to see that happen too! - Perhaps something based on the scrapped Intercity 250 project (Class 93 electric + Mk.5's) and for Cross-Country, etc...that idea that was written in RE a few months ago (Uk version of Siemens Eurosprinter or Bombardier TRAXX + OBB Railjet type coaches).

Mind you the Railjet idea however could be a real possiblity, if this IEP ('expensive white elephant' as its been dubbed by some) scheme is does indeed prove to be an abysmal failure.

 

[me123]

The whole thing is a bit of a farce if you ask me. I can almost see it going belly up like the APT before it.

That option's really not available; a lot of the trains will be replacing HSTs, which will be verging on life-expired by the time ICEP will be here. Basically, this needs to be a success.

 

[Techniquest]

I hope Hitachi win and stick to their proposed design, I like theirs more than this other thing that's proposed.

I too hope it is a success, we need this to go well!

 

[222001]

I hope Hitachi win and stick to their proposed design, I like theirs more than this other thing that's proposed.

I too hope it is a success, we need this to go well!

In the end I don't care who wins as long as it is built in the UK.

 

[PhilipW]

The country is in a financial mess. Firms are going bust. People are losing their jobs.

Then the DfT is to announce that a Japanese firm is to build new trains for us.

Am I missing something ?

 

[Techniquest]

I'm judging it purely on aesthetics and ride quality (which obviously we won't know until it reaches public service). But I would like to see it built in the UK, keeping jobs going in this country and getting the country back on the trainbuilding map!

 

[tbtc]

I'm not too bothered who wins the tender to build these, as long as we build enough of them and build them soon - we can't keep the HSTs going indefinately!

Will this be the first "unified" type of unit specified for more than one TOC (post privatisation)? I know that some units (like 170s) have been built for more than one franchise, but generally these were built *for* one TOC, and then others decided to take some too. For example, the Midland Mainline 170s worked well, so National Express bought some for it's ScotRail franchise too. Whereas these new trains will be agreed for more than one franchise well before any are built/ operated. Just a thought (forgive me if I'm wrong).

 

[Daimler]

I'm judging it purely on aesthetics and ride quality (which obviously we won't know until it reaches public service). But I would like to see it built in the UK, keeping jobs going in this country and getting the country back on the trainbuilding map!

This is what worries me most of all - I've never found any 'coach' with powered bogies to ride as well as a well-maintained Mk3 - and don't expect to anytime soon. Everytime I go in a Pendolino I'm surprised at how choppy the ride is!

 

[PhilipW]

I'm not too bothered who wins the tender to build these.

Oh !

The country is in the worst financial mess for ages and it probably take a generation to sort it out. Our children will still be paying taxes for the foolishness of the last few years.

Britain invented the railway. Surely we should be able to build our next generation of trains ourselves.

If nobody cares, then there is no point in complaining about our economy.
Nobody else is going to get Britain out this mess. We have to help ourselves out. If we don't then the recession will go on and on .... and on.

I don't want that. I can't believe that anyone else on this forum wants that too.

 

[222001]

This is what worries me most of all - I've never found any 'coach' with powered bogies to ride as well as a well-maintained Mk3 - and don't expect to anytime soon. Everytime I go in a Pendolino I'm surprised at how choppy the ride is!

I personally rate the MK3 ride qaulity that high. They bounce all over the place on some bits of the MML whereas a 22x train doesn't.

 

[Daimler]

I personally rate the MK3 ride qaulity that high. They bounce all over the place on some bits of the MML whereas a 22x train doesn't.

Possibly they're in need of some work?

I don't know, but I find the Pendolinos, for example, to ride terribly in comparison with the Mk3s on the WCML - and I can't say I was too impressed with Voyagers when I've been in 'em (the closest I've got to a 222 - maybe they ride much better??).

Certainly, EMT's stock looks tired from the outside!

 

[me123]

I don't have a problem with the Pendolinos. I think they're quite comfortable (in coaches B and C at least). Don't like Voyagers, though. The ride quality isn't great and the smell is generally quite bad; much worse than on Pendos. Still, they do have nice big windows...

 

[Pumbaa]

I disagree - I think the ride quality on both the 220/1/2s is superb. The bogies are noted (I tink) for being very good. I certainly prefer them to almost any other traction because of this (well 220/1s anyway)

 

[Daimler]

I don't have a problem with the Pendolinos. I think they're quite comfortable (in coaches B and C at least). Don't like Voyagers, though. The ride quality isn't great and the smell is generally quite bad; much worse than on Pendos. Still, they do have nice big windows...

They don't ride too badly - just not as well as a Mk3 (or so I've found). Their main problem is the windows though - it's like looking through a letterbox. Having said that, this problem seems to be alleviated in first class, as the tables do at least line up with windows. The tapering sides make it still feel cramped, though!

EDIT: There are no plans to make the IEP a tilting train, are there?

 

[Pumbaa]

Thankfully DfT aren't that stupid! On the premise that the WCML is the only mainline tilted, and the others don't need it, I guess not.

 

[WillPS]

Meridians are just fully lovely trains through and through in my opinion, elegant looking in all 3 liveries they've been in (and the concept Grand Central one for that), silky smooth to ride in... and the best seats on any train on the network I reckon.

 

[MCR247]

Meridians are just fully lovely trains through and through in my opinion, elegant looking in all 3 liveries they've been in (and the concept Grand Central one for that), silky smooth to ride in... and the best seats on any train on the network I reckon.

What concept GC one?

 

[GNERman]

Can anyone remind me what trains it will repace and on which lines...
Thanks

 

[Chafford1]

The original plan was for 5 and 10 coach trains:

Core Routes

ECML - 225s and HSTs (electric and 'bi-mode')

GWML - HSTs (diesel and 'bi-mode'))

Plus possibly the following:

WCML - New fast service to Northampton (electric)

Kings Lynn services (electric)

Cross Country - replacing HSTs ('bi-mode')

Transport Scotland - all three versions.

January 2008 Modern Railways has a detailed article.


More recently,talk has been about an initial order for ECML,WCML and Kings Lynn services with orders for GWML (and possibly MML) to follow once the Government has taken a decision on electrification.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are no plans to make the IEP a tilting train, are there?

No. According to DfT (see March 2008 Modern Railways), a 125mph IEP will only lose 45 -50 seconds between Euston and Milton Keynes when compared with a Pendolino.

 

[222001]

Meridians are just fully lovely trains through and through in my opinion, elegant looking in all 3 liveries they've been in (and the concept Grand Central one for that), silky smooth to ride in... and the best seats on any train on the network I reckon.

Agreed! Nice to find someone else that thinks the same!

Also how long are the IEP trains going to be in terms of number of carraiges. Also is a half length train half a train or just half the length of a normal one?

 

[Chafford1]

Full length electric - 10 coaches

Full length 'bi-mode' - 9 coaches plus diesel powertrain

Full length diesel (if it happens) - 8 coaches plus 2 diesel powertrains

Half length electric - 5 coaches

Half length 'bi-mode' - 4 coaches plus diesel powertrain

 

[222001]

Hmm, I wonder if the bi-mode ones will be a DEMU/EMU mix.

Also 4 coaches isn't very long!

 

[Pumbaa]

Hmm, I wonder if the bi-mode ones will be a DEMU/EMU mix.

Also 4 coaches isn't very long!

You'd have thought that by now they'd realised the Voyagers were a mistake!

 

[222001]

You'd have thought that by now they'd realised the Voyagers were a mistake!

Hmm, I missed that it said diesel powertrain so I presume it will be just one power car. Where would the 4 car bi-mode trains be used. They just seem quite small!

Whoever thought the 9 car Meridians were a good idea must have been off their rocker! Just think of the cost and maintainance of 9 engines in a single train!
The Voyager concept is good on trains 4 or maybe 5 cars or less and with journey times under 2 hours with quite a few stops to take advantage of the higher acceleration.