Merseyrail Martin Zee case - Not Guilty verdict reached

[Pyreneenguy]

Yes, but that doesn't extend to providing personal assistance services where these are not requested, does it?

If it did, that would be one massive can of worms.

When a station's infrastructure can clearly present passengers with a life-threatening problem i.e a significant gap between platform and carriage and poor visibility due to the platforms curvature, the company clearly have to take additional measures to ensure the safety of the customers. It's hardly sufficient to shout out " mind the gap".

 

[Bletchleyite]

When a station's infrastructure can clearly present passengers with a life-threatening problem i.e a significant gap between platform and carriage and poor visibility due to the platforms curvature, the company clearly have to take additional measures to ensure the safety of the customers. It's hardly sufficient to shout out " mind the gap".

Well, for many years on LU and Clapham Jn platform 17 that has been considered sufficient.

The gap at Bank on the Central Line, and the gap at CLJ P17, is at least a foot. There's nothing like that on Merseyrail.

 

[AlterEgo]

Case adjourned.

Case adjourned until Monday

The court was due to hear from Mr Fitzgibbon’s expert, but as this would take too long it has been delayed until Monday.

The case will be adjourned until next Monday, March 13.

When the case resumes, we will hear from Mr Fitzgibbon’s expert witness.

 

[Marklund]

Day three, CPS introducing an engineer from Glasgow who mapped the platform with lasers to produce a 3d model as witness.

The Prosecution "Expert"

Expert witnesses CV under question

Mr Fitzgibbon now claims that Mr McCulloch’s experience relates to matters at sea rather than safety on the railway.

He then asks Mr McCulloch when his last case involving railways was. He replies that it was in 2008.

Mr Fitzgibbon asks how he keeps his knowledge up-to-date. He says he reads the industry press, industry journals that he reads online and information that he gets online.

“So basically these are just publications that once every now and again they may publish a magazine - and you’re reading that? You’re not reading massive technical information are you?”

“They are engineering magazines so there is some level of technical details.”

Mr McCulloch has no “guard procedure” experience

Mr Fitzgibbon continues to go through Mr McCulloch’s CV.

He is asking him about how Mr McCulloch was involved in a “failed” project for around 12 months.

He asks if it was anything to do with guard procedure or “actual practical experience” on what happens on the railway?

Mr McCulloch says “No it was nothing to do with guard procedure. I have never operated as a guard or dispatch. I am an engineer.”

Mr Fitzgibbon: “You have never had any experience of the platform-train interface as a practical working man have you?”

Mr McCulloch: “I have been involved in work regarding dispatch.”

Mr Fitzgibbon: “Quite a lot of your work is desk based isn’t it? When have you ever had anything to do with being on the platform or the dispatch of the trains?”

Mr McCulloch: “Do you want me to give you a CV of everything I’ve ever done? I work in a number of industries, I’m not exclusively devoted to any of those but I do keep my skills current.”

I wonder what technical manuals they were, to be called as an expert having had nothing to do with the railways for 9 years...

 

[lejog]

The Prosecution "Expert"




I wonder what technical manuals they were, to be called as an expert having had nothing to do with the railways for 9 years...

Thats a case of going for the man not the ball. He was employed by Network Rail to write a report on the incident (15:22). You can challenge the experience of an expert witness as much as you like, but if you can't challenge the science/engineering presented its not that much use.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

It is my understanding that only those involved in the case would be in contempt if theu were discussing it out of the courtroom.

As none of us on here are neither involved in, or have any influence over this case I cant see how we could be in contempt.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Sadly, at this stop (platform curves right / concave) you have to.

The set procedure for Merseyrail, when in the tunnels / underground sections, guard must be at the rear.

For most guards, this local rule goes against the natural behaviour of moving and positioning ourselves at a more suitable door panel ie- the middle of the train.

Yes I can fully agree with that and I have to do it at some point during most work days. What I meant was that surely nobody would give the ready to start signal without having checked all doors were closed and nobody was trapped-as per Module SS1.

 

[lejog]

It is my understanding that only those involved in the case would be in contempt if theu were discussing it out of the courtroom.

As none of us on here are neither involved in, or have any influence over this case I cant see how we could be in contempt.

That is "juror contempt", however "publication contempt" is also an offence.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/types-of-contempt-of-court-dealt-with-by-the-attorney-generals-office

Publication contempt

Sometimes material is published which risks damaging a trial. This could be in a newspaper, television, radio, website or social media – all are covered by the Contempt of Court Act 1981 (the Act).

Publication can also be something a non-journalist puts out themselves, most often by social media, which then spreads.

 

[6Gman]

I think it's reasonable that if you want "formal" assistance you should ask for it. Many disabilities are not obvious, and many people prefer *not* being assisted.

She was also travelling with a companion, though it's unclear whether this second person was in a position to assist.

 

[Marklund]

Thats a case of going for the man not the ball. He was employed by Network Rail to write a report on the incident (15:22). You can challenge the experience of an expert witness as much as you like, but if you can't challenge the science/engineering presented its not that much use.

And if taking the man prevents an own goal, then job done.

The question remains, what journals and magazines were read?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any "opinion-forming" speculation published on the web may result in a contempt of court. Accurate fact-based, speculation-free live blogging can't,

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/dec/04/tweeters-warned-about-contempt-of-court

Reading that Grauniad article seems to suggest that it's actually specific aspects which might present an issue. As most of the discussion here surrounds publically available information reported from the Court it isn't anything the Court doesn't already know.

But it does sound like the thread is walking a fine line...perhaps it should be paused (locked) until after the verdict.

 

[Domh245]

But it does sound like the thread is walking a fine line...perhaps it should be paused (locked) until after the verdict.

Perhaps, although that would limit discussion on other aspects that come up. Alternatively, the thread could be far more actively moderated with a clear guideline of what is allowed and what isn't, but the mods are only volunteers.

 

[infobleep]

But why scapegoat an individual if the real argument is an alleged rotten corporation?

Because going after an individual is easier than a company.

 

[Clip]

Because going after an individual is easier than a company.

Are you saying it was the company that shut the doors whilst not looking as a woman boarded the train then?

If so can I ask where you got this information from and what made you come to this conclusion if you have no information to confirm that it was due to the company that caused this incident?

 

[Smethwickian]

As well as the direct risk of contempt of court from discussions such as these, the publishers have no defence against any defamation claims arising from any accusations or insinuations because it cannot claim to be a fair, accurate and contemporaneous account of court proceedings. But I'm only a journalist of 29 years' experience on weekly and daily newspapers with a fuddy-duddy attitude to the social media free-for-all that people seem to think is outside the law, so who cares...

 

[ejstubbs]

She was also travelling with a companion, though it's unclear whether this second person was in a position to assist.

My understanding is that the companion, who had managed to get on the train, was using a walking frame. That suggests that she wouldn't have been able to offer much assistance.

surely nobody would give the ready to start signal without having checked all doors were closed and nobody was trapped-as per Module SS1.

I don't believe the ready to start signal was given in this case. My understanding is that the woman fell as a result of the door being closed while she was holding on to it for support. The train itself did not move.

 

[lejog]

As well as the direct risk of contempt of court from discussions such as these, the publishers have no defence against any defamation claims arising from any accusations or insinuations because it cannot claim to be a fair, accurate and contemporaneous account of court proceedings. But I'm only a journalist of 29 years' experience on weekly and daily newspapers with a fuddy-duddy attitude to the social media free-for-all that people seem to think is outside the law, so who cares...

I've learnt two things from this thread this afternoon:

• engineers have no place giving evidence on the technical aspects of the case if they have never been a guard.
• guards have a better understanding of the scope of the Contempt Of Court Act 1981 than a former attorney general.

I'd watch out with your expert views based on experience and common sense, there are ordinary people who agree with Michael Gove about experts around here.

 

[infobleep]

As well as the direct risk of contempt of court from discussions such as these, the publishers have no defence against any defamation claims arising from any accusations or insinuations because it cannot claim to be a fair, accurate and contemporaneous account of court proceedings. But I'm only a journalist of 29 years' experience on weekly and daily newspapers with a fuddy-duddy attitude to the social media free-for-all that people seem to think is outside the law, so who cares...

I remember hearing or reading some years ago about a judge who issued proceedings against some radio and TV stations because a court reporter and misreporting a verdict. The judge wanted to make a point about court proceedings.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why it has taken so long for this to actually come to court.

We don't know. It was scheduled for trial last July, but an application was made to defer the trial until March of this year. It was not reported who made this application, it could have been either the CPS or Mr Zee's legal team.

Perhaps TOCs need to start prosecuting more people for this offence. I wonder how many people reading this forum would be arrested?

Tyne and Wear Metro had a number of issues with trap-and-drags caused by people boarding whilst the hustle alarm sounds. So they've started clamping down on it and they've prosecuted several people for it. Fines have been typically in the £200 mark.

 

[talltim]

It is Merseyrail's problem, because they have a duty of care to anyone who enters their property or uses their services.

Does (for example) the Highways Agency have a similar duty of care to anyone using or misusing any of their roads?

 

[Clip]

We don't know. It was scheduled for trial last July, but an application was made to defer the trial until March of this year. It was not reported who made this application, it could have been either the CPS or Mr Zee's legal team.

My post wasnt asking why it took so long but as a whole it was trying to show why it took so long to come to court - if you quoted the thing as a whole post

 

[talltim]

Are you saying it was the company that shut the doors whilst not looking as a woman boarded the train then?

If so can I ask where you got this information from and what made you come to this conclusion if you have no information to confirm that it was due to the company that caused this incident?

It was the company that investigated the incident and found that Zee had done it correctly.

 

[AlterEgo]

Does (for example) the Highways Agency have a similar duty of care to anyone using or misusing any of their roads?

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....thority-owes-you-for-your-road-conditions/amp

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tyne and Wear Metro had a number of issues with trap-and-drags caused by people boarding whilst the hustle alarm sounds. So they've started clamping down on it and they've prosecuted several people for it. Fines have been typically in the £200 mark.

Crikey, it's a different world. When I take a Tube journey it is normal for people to do this at every single stop on every single train.

 

[HH]

Crikey, it's a different world. When I take a Tube journey it is normal for people to do this at every single stop on every single train.

To be fair people are often still getting off when this happens, because doors are blocked both on and off train.

 

[muz379]

But why scapegoat an individual if the real argument is an alleged rotten corporation?

Surely both could also be true though .

It could be that the guard has done something criminal .

And Merseyside have covered this up for whatever reason in their investigation .

So prosecute the guard , and then use that successful prosecution as evidence in a case against merseyrail for covering up his illegal practices or incompetence in investigating the incident.

 

[Clip]

It was the company that investigated the incident and found that Zee had done it correctly.

And it turns out upon further investigation that the individual didnt hence why they are up in court.

 

[HH]

Surely both could also be true though .

It could be that the guard has done something criminal .

And Merseyside have covered this up for whatever reason in their investigation .

So prosecute the guard , and then use that successful prosecution as evidence in a case against merseyrail for covering up his illegal practices or incompetence in investigating the incident.

Precisely.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Crikey, it's a different world. When I take a Tube journey it is normal for people to do this at every single stop on every single train.

They're really after the ones who stand in the doors to stop them closing whilst their 27 mates finish buying a ticket and come strolling up the platform. But they are taking it seriously: passenger education and enforcement was a RAIB recommendation.

Metro drivers used to release (not re-open, just re-activate the open button) the closed doors if they saw someone running for the train, but they don't tend to anymore. Make of that what you will.

 

[ComUtoR]

Metro drivers used to release (not re-open, just re-activate the open button)

Interesting point.

On our stock we (both drivers and guards) can only 'release' the doors. On the stock that had the incident, is there an option for both ? Did Mr Zee 'Open' the doors or 'release them'