Station overcrowding and trains coming through at speed

[Bletchleyite]

Followed by a 2 car 150 rolling in

I'm sure I recall a LU station (forget which one) that had an automatic announcement saying "please use the full length of the platform" when a short Circle Line train arrived.

 

[Class 170101]

What gets me is that it has quite slender platforms yet gets packed during the peaks and has trains travelling through at speed - the Reading/Manchester XC and some freight services come through at 60mph+. It's not always possible to 'stand behind the yellow line' without nudging and pushing people over towards the other platform or squashing up by the walls.

You may find some drivers might back off - learning from experience how crowded certain stations can be. I know at Stratford (London) some non-stop trains don't run through at linespeed is my perception.

 

[PHILIPE]

Followed by a 2 car 150 rolling in

Or a Coryton with a 153

 

[theironroad]

You may find some drivers might back off - learning from experience how crowded certain stations can be. I know at Stratford (London) some non-stop trains don't run through at linespeed is my perception.

Is that because the platform is crowded or because the train is running on restrictive signals or it's using a DAS system or using route knowledge to prevent arriving at a junction early and having to stop for a conflicting move?

 

[furnessvale]

You may find some drivers might back off - learning from experience how crowded certain stations can be. I know at Stratford (London) some non-stop trains don't run through at linespeed is my perception.

Unless the train can stop on a sixpence that seems to be only a gesture.

 

[boxy321]

Trains to Whitlocks End don't go through Solihull. Whitlocks End is on the North Warwickshire line not on the Didcot to Chester line.

As far as Solihull is concerned the platforms at Solihull are far better than 15 years ago; when Chiltern wanted to extend the platforms back to 8-cars, CT, who was still the SFO at that point, insisted that NRIL levelled and brought them up to standard to produce compliant platform stepping distances.

There is only a problem with passing Voyagers or freight trains if passengers insist on congregating around the entrance, if they walk either way along the platforms there is plenty of room to stand on the platform well away from the tactiles and yellow lines.

A large number of people do now walk down to the south end of the platform at Solihull due to overcrowding by the entrance and waiting room. If they expect a class 68 mainline train and a small 3 coach 172 turns up that's a lot of people trying to get in one door at the back. The announcements often give incorrect train lengths and an LM 6 coach train often arrives unexpectedly (not a bad thing and even with a full platform, it's half empty to Moor St.).

I didn't realise Whitlocks End had become one of these new 'parkway' type stations so thanks for that info.

 

[boxy321]

Unless the train can stop on a sixpence that seems to be only a gesture.

It's more about the shock and air flow (considerable with the random build up of some freight trains).

 

[coppercapped]

I use Solihull station everyday and it is becoming busier and busier, like many provincial places where the roads nearby get gridlocked in the morning.

What gets me is that it has quite slender platforms yet gets packed during the peaks and has trains travelling through at speed - the Reading/Manchester XC and some freight services come through at 60mph+.

The exit barriers at Slough station are built out onto the Down Main platform.

HSTs come through at 125mph and you are worried about 60mph?

Wimps!

 

[theageofthetra]

On Japanese lines where there is more than a bit of overcrowding on narrow platforms- a fast train that is not stopping has lights flashing and horn going on approach (a bit like US practice)

 

[D1009]

I have never suggested they did. I don't think anyone else has either.

Apart from the OP.

 

[321446]

There does seem to be a worrying amount of people for who a station platform is an alien environment. I was "lucky" in that I was using trains from a lad, so had stay back from the platform edge beaten into me from an early age. When a passenger myself, I note the "excited" yelps from the younger generation as a train barrels through Shenfield apparently totally unexpectedly for example (most things stop). More so if it's a container train as alluded to above, the "suck'n'blow" of a train of spaced out containers is quite noticeable.

However, a well packed platform at, say, Romford seen from the cab is quite a vexing sight. My 321 may not have quite the presence of a Class 66 with a load of containers, but it is noticeable that despite platform staff, announcements, horn and big yellow platform markings (the platform staff bring those to the attention of those who for whatever reason are unable to hear or see them) there is a number of people who are oblivious to the effect of over 100 ton of fast moving metal passing less than a foot from their ear.

Even when those who are aware of their environment do and have moved down, there will always be those who just see the yellow hatched path between people's noses and the edge of the platform as an easy path to where they are going. You can educate some of those, my arrival hopefully accounts for some of their re-education, but some you will never reach (hopefully literally not reach).

Without heavily modifying every through platform, the only way is education by experience. Those you don't educate because they don't care will continue to be oblivious. Hopefully the worse thing that will happen to them is they will forget they've left a brick of lego on the lounge floor and they'll find it with their bare feet.

 

[Chris M]

On Japanese lines where there is more than a bit of overcrowding on narrow platforms- a fast train that is not stopping has lights flashing and horn going on approach (a bit like US practice)

Every DLR train that passes through a station out of service, regardless of speed, sounds the horn as it approaches the platform. And again as it passes through if necessary.

 

[centraluser]

Biggest problem is also the same issue as Moor Street (Both run by Chiltern Railway), unlike London Midland Chiltern don't announce the train length resulting in people congregating around the Stairwell / buildings. Commuters are very good at learning train lengths but every busy period still has large numbers of unfamiliar congregators.

A message about train length and perhaps a little education about carriage stop signs would go a long way but is clearly no where near a magic bullet due to train vehicle lengths differences. (all trains that stop at Solihull on a regular basis are C3 (23m) I believe)

For historical reasons, the screens (and auto-announcing systems) at Solihull are owned and operated by London Midland. Chiltern have no direct access to the systems, except for live local announcements.

All train running information is fed from Darwin, which does not hold data relating to the number of carriages that a train is formed of.

Given that Chiltern do not routinely program in their train lengths to their Customer Information System for Southbound trains, I would say that the likelihood of auto-announcing train lengths at Solihull (which LM would have to input) is very low.

 

[daikilo]

As the problem would appear to be shortly before the arrival of morning peak hour trains in one direction and maybe only on weekdays, how about a "signalling solution" where the few non-stop trains preceding a stopper would see caution signals on the approach to Solihull.

A second solution would be to build an additional platform on one of the old four-track beds and close off that side of the island.

A third would be to slew one of the tracks onto the outer trackbed and widen the island but this almost certainly would lead to a significant closure period.

Of these, the first makes the most sense to me as a quick win, but a long term solution is probably also needed.

 

[221129]

As the problem would appear to be shortly before the arrival of morning peak hour trains in one direction and maybe only on weekdays, how about a "signalling solution" where the few non-stop trains preceding a stopper would see caution signals on the approach to Solihull.

Definitely not!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I witnessed quite a dangerous incident along these lines yesterday at Lancaster. The PIS announced "Platform 3 for the xx.xx service to Barrow in Furness", shortly followed by a 185 on a Glasgow service belting through at linespeed with no warning. Although you're not meant to until the train stops, passengers had already started to move forward to board, and some were quite taken aback.

I'm surprised a modern PIS didn't announce a warning, but this really needs fixing. If it can't be, the through train needs to be scheduled to pass through at reduced speed, and a manual "stand away" announcement done.

 

[Ianno87]

I witnessed quite a dangerous incident along these lines yesterday at Lancaster. The PIS announced "Platform 3 for the xx.xx service to Barrow in Furness", shortly followed by a 185 on a Glasgow service belting through at linespeed with no warning. Although you're not meant to until the train stops, passengers had already started to move forward to board, and some were quite taken aback.

I'm surprised a modern PIS didn't announce a warning, but this really needs fixing. If it can't be, the through train needs to be scheduled to pass through at reduced speed, and a manual "stand away" announcement done.

Why was a 185 belting through Platform 3 at Lancaster at linespeed? Why wasn't it on the through lines? I thought the platform loops were (relatively) low speed anyway?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why was a 185 belting through Platform 3 at Lancaster at linespeed? Why wasn't it on the through lines? I thought the platform loops were (relatively) low speed anyway?

It went through at a reasonable pelt - not 100mph but reasonably quick. Definitely on platform 3. No idea why, though apparently "it happens all the time, people get confused because it stops on a weekday".

As the Barrow was coaches D, E and F does it portion work with that and split at Preston I wonder? Was the one arriving Ulverston at 1501, I think it was 1413 off LAN.

 

[PHILIPE]

It went through at a reasonable pelt - not 100mph but reasonably quick. Definitely on platform 3. No idea why, though apparently "it happens all the time, people get confused because it stops on a weekday".

As the Barrow was coaches D, E and F does it portion work with that and split at Preston I wonder? Was the one arriving Ulverston at 1501, I think it was 1413 off LAN.

Not quite clear what services you are trying to describe. The TPE is actually booked via Platform 3 but this doesn't answer your question, unfortunately.
Usually, there is a message requesting people stand back as "the next train does not stop here".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Usually, there is a message requesting people stand back as "the next train does not stop here".

There wasn't in this case - indeed, the "Platform 3 for the 1413 service to Barrow..." had seemingly been triggered prior to it arriving, which was the dangerous (and confusing) occurrence. Passengers were specifically expecting a train to stop which didn't.

Correction, 1423, sorry. Just looked at RTT, it isn't portion worked, it starts at Preston.

 

[daveo]

There wasn't in this case - indeed, the "Platform 3 for the 1413 service to Barrow..." had seemingly been triggered prior to it arriving, which was the dangerous (and confusing) occurrence. Passengers were specifically expecting a train to stop which didn't.

Correction, 1423, sorry. Just looked at RTT, it isn't portion worked, it starts at Preston.

That service, and the preceding Glasgow service did indeed arrive in Preston as one train, and divided there. I travelled on the BIF service from Preston to Carnforth, and was amused by the schizophrenic unit. It arrived as a TPE service from Manchester (the conductor confirmed that as one unit it was TPE) but when the units split it changed into a Northern service!!

 

[D1009]

I can only take from this and the evidence from RTT that the down through line is out of use for whatever reason. Perhaps the PIS does not provide for this eventuality. The speed through the platform is definitely not low.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That service, and the preceding Glasgow service did indeed arrive in Preston as one train, and divided there. I travelled on the BIF service from Preston to Carnforth, and was amused by the schizophrenic unit. It arrived as a TPE service from Manchester (the conductor confirmed that as one unit it was TPE) but when the units split it changed into a Northern service!!

The on-board PIS claimed it was TPE all the way to Ulverston, FWIW.

Irritatingly, reservations had not been placed.

That route is no stranger to multi-TOC workings - in the pre-1998 timetable a NWRR NorthWest Express class 156 left Manchester Airport coupled to an ICWC 158, ran to Bolton where they split with the 156 running via Wigan to Barrow/Windermere and the 158 running via Chorley to Preston, where it coupled to another 158 coming from Liverpool and proceeded to Scotland. One such service was the 1708 from Manchester Oxford Road, but there were others.

 

[Darandio]

I can only take from this and the evidence from RTT that the down through line is out of use for whatever reason. Perhaps the PIS does not provide for this eventuality. The speed through the platform is definitely not low.

I suppose it depends what is defined as low. The permitted speed is 40mph.

 

[daikilo]

Definitely not!

Oh, why?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose it depends what is defined as low. The permitted speed is 40mph.

Still not great if people are moving forward past the yellow line to board. (I know they shouldn't have been, but they were!)

One of those cases where no information would have been better than wrong information.

 

[boxy321]

As the problem would appear to be shortly before the arrival of morning peak hour trains in one direction and maybe only on weekdays, how about a "signalling solution" where the few non-stop trains preceding a stopper would see caution signals on the approach to Solihull.

A second solution would be to build an additional platform on one of the old four-track beds and close off that side of the island.

A third would be to slew one of the tracks onto the outer trackbed and widen the island but this almost certainly would lead to a significant closure period.

Of these, the first makes the most sense to me as a quick win, but a long term solution is probably also needed.

There's ideas being thrown about to move Solihull Station south (making a new build simpler than existing station upgrades), which most people do not want however. There are definite plans to spend a lot of money there, probably starting in about 5 years time.

BTW, got from Moor St. to Solihull on a 168 in 6.5 minutes this morning! Driver gave it welly to 90mph right from the off as the LM train was late and had been overtaken. Put a smile on my face as it got me to work faster than the 5min earlier LM train would have!

 

[FGW_Lad]

The exit barriers at Slough station are built out onto the Down Main platform.

HSTs come through at 125mph and you are worried about 60mph?

Wimps!

100% Agree! Watch passengers on P2/P3 suddenly get the fright of their lives when a HST blasts through!

 

[boxy321]

As the problem would appear to be shortly before the arrival of morning peak hour trains in one direction and maybe only on weekdays, how about a "signalling solution" where the few non-stop trains preceding a stopper would see caution signals on the approach to Solihull.

A second solution would be to build an additional platform on one of the old four-track beds and close off that side of the island.

A third would be to slew one of the tracks onto the outer trackbed and widen the island but this almost certainly would lead to a significant closure period.

Of these, the first makes the most sense to me as a quick win, but a long term solution is probably also needed.

There's ideas being thrown about to move Solihull Station south (making a new build simpler than existing station upgrades), which most people do not want however. There are definite plans to spend a lot of money there, probably starting in about 5 years time.

BTW, got from Moor St. to Solihull on a 168 in 6.5 minutes this morning! Driver gave it welly to 90mph right from the off as the LM train was late and had been overtaken. Put a smile on my face as it got me to work faster than the 5min earlier LM train would have!

 

[daikilo]

There's ideas being thrown about to move Solihull Station south (making a new build simpler than existing station upgrades), which most people do not want however. There are definite plans to spend a lot of money there, probably starting in about 5 years time.

Ah, so it is recognised that there is a problem that needs to be addressed but money will determine the solution and timeline. Let's hope there is no accident in the interim.