Manchester Fights To Keep Pacers

[Chilled Phill]

Hi, been lurking here for a while, but thought I'd finally join in

I catch that train pretty much every day to Uni - the 07.51 from Chelford to Manchester. Not to go too far off topic, but how come that train (and an increasing number of trains on the line) are operated by 142's? Pre 14th Dec timetable change, all services were operated by 323's (and we had an 08.19 train too that didn't skip us:P ) Seems quite pointless to have pacers running under an electric line? Is is because Northern are still short of a 323 following the Congleton crash? Is there an eta for it to return to 323 operation, or are we stuck with 142s for the foreseeable future? Its the only rush hour train now from Chelford post Dec 14, so being able to get a seat would be nice

Many thanks for your replies,

James

Hello Bran. I take the same service a couple of days to week for my early Uni starts.

Bit annoying today, although I was VERY impressed with how the conductor managed to keep the train "safely cramped", so to speak, but also kept us on time. I told her after Oxford Road that the conductors job is quite a thankless one after several passengers went up to her complaining of the service, even though it wasn't really her's (or even Northern's fault) they don't have the units for the service.

We should get two 2-car DMUs for that particular service, although if you look at it, a single 323 has more seating in it than any combo of DMUs could muster up.

 

[Craig]

I just wonder if West Yorkshire PTE would Sub-Lease the 155s to EMT as there not much different to the 153s..

More gibberish from know-it-all veg.

155s would require re-training. They may look similar to 153s but electrically they are not. There are significant enough differences, particularly with circuit breakers and under solebar equipment. From a northern driver who signs both.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Northern needs to retain these Extra units or at Worst Recall the FGW 142's and the Scotrail 158's as it will drive people off the rails without these units.

 

[devon_metro]

Northern needs to retain these Extra units or at Worst Recall the FGW 142's

At the expense of the very popular Devon local system?

Half of the North will end up travelling of these trains when they decide to trash the south when coming on holiday so its within the North's interest to keep them down south.

 

[Chilled Phill]

At the expense of the very popular Devon local system?

Half of the North will end up travelling of these trains when they decide to trash the south when coming on holiday so its within the North's interest to keep them down south.

Agreed.

I'm all for getting new units, but I'm not comfortable with the idea of fetching units from other TOCs when they themselves need them as well. Besides, Northern are getting new/cascaded stock soon enough. :roll:

 

[TEW]

Northern needs to retain these Extra units or at Worst Recall the FGW 142's and the Scotrail 158's as it will drive people off the rails without these units.

Do you know how selfish that is?

I know for a fact FGW desperately need these units and I am guessing Scotrail do as well.

 

[tbtc]

Also i think that it may be an idear for Northern to Sub-Lease the three 180s to EMT

:roll:

Seriously, give up on the idea that EMT are going to get 180s any time soon - you're getting very very boring...

Anyhow, I thought you'd want Northern to have extra units so they can run doubled up trains on the local services like Liverpool - Widnes, which would allow EMT to omit these small places and concentrate on longer distance passengers - everyone's a winner

 

[Stonesourscotty]

What i meant was if they took our 142s away would it not just be an effect of Northern calling back the 142's from FGW to run its own services? and same for the 158's at Scotrail?

 

[devon_metro]

FGW traded 142s for 158s, Northern don't deserve a single unit FGW has.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

I Thought we are Sub Leasing the 142's?

 

[TEW]

No, you leased six( I think it was 6) off FGW.
You took 12 of our 158s in December 2007 and then got six 142s back in December 2008. FGW now has a severe shortage of units, there is overcrowding everywhere and long distance services like Gloucester-Weymouth are often run with Class 150s, while up North you have 158s on all stop local routes. The 142s are unsuitable down here, you can have them back if we can have the 158s back.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

No the 158's are nearly Entirely confined to the Leeds area Services. We on the North west never see any 158's apart from EMT Ones...apart from Blackpool/Manchester vic Services and to make it even worse theres alot of ex ATN stock around here at the moment which apart from the 156's are in Dire conditions Especially the 142/150's. Northern is short of Units at the moment as it is.

I'm pretty sure the 142's are subleased off Northern.

 

[350401]

No, you leased six( I think it was 6) off FGW.
You took 12 of our 158s in December 2007 and then got six 142s back in December 2008. FGW now has a severe shortage of units, there is overcrowding everywhere and long distance services like Gloucester-Weymouth are often run with Class 150s, while up North you have 158s on all stop local routes. The 142s are unsuitable down here, you can have them back if we can have the 158s back.

Northern also has a severe unit shortage, the 07.51 Chelford-Manchester again being short formed on Thursday - being 1x142, not the 2 booked. The simple truth is that more units are needed, both by NT and by FGW. I remember reading that FGW and NT are getting some 172s and hopefully cascaded 150s from London Midland in the next year or so?

To clarify the 142 situation, checked on wikipedia - FGW was sub-leased 12 Nothern 142s in 2007, of which 5 have now returned back north. The remaining 7 were due to return north in late 2009/2010 when FGW gained a number of 150s from London Midland. However, it looks like FGW will be keeping these in order to ease overcrowding, as well as gaining 150s. Given this situation, it only seems fair that Northern keep the 142s used on the Oldham line, rather than FGW or ATW gain them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

..to make it even worse theres alot of ex ATN stock around here at the moment which apart from the 156's are in Dire conditions Especially the 142/150's. Northern is short of Units at the moment as it is.

I'm pretty sure the 142's are subleased off Northern.

You've got to admit that the ATN refubished 142s are pretty nice - 2x2 high backed comfy seats Whenever the 07.51 Chelford-Mcr is formed of 2x142s, I always check the type of seats are in each one before boarding - ATN refurbed wins every time over Merseyrail/FNW 142s

 

[tbtc]

The simple truth is that more units are needed, both by NT and by FGW. I remember reading that FGW and NT are getting some 172s and hopefully cascaded 150s from London Midland in the next year or so?

True - and hopefully both are going to get something to tackle their capacity problems. I can't believe that Northern will ever get brand new DMUs, but will be happily proved wrong!

 

[Chilled Phill]

Northern also has a severe unit shortage, the 07.51 Chelford-Manchester again being short formed on Thursday - being 1x142, not the 2 booked. The simple truth is that more units are needed, both by NT and by FGW. I remember reading that FGW and NT are getting some 172s and hopefully cascaded 150s from London Midland in the next year or so?

How was the service on Friday, James.

Yes, as part of the DfT plan for Northern Rail, they should be getting Cl.150s from London Midland when they're new rolling stock is put into service.

However, as discussed in other threads, ourselves should be getting new builds to replace the outgoing Cl.323s, bound for LM. I believe Northern hold 17 323 units at the moment and we should be getting 25-ish newly built EMUs by the start of the next decade.

Shame really, the 323s were the units that got me into the railways, be a sad day to see them go. :cry:

 

[Stonesourscotty]

No I Despise ATN Seat's and the interior colour reminds me of the Wright Cadets at Arriva Runcorn buses YUK!. i am a tall person there is only 1 good seat on a Ex Atn Unit and thats near the Cab's same with the Horrible Merseyrail 142's Merseyrail ones are bad news for tall people i stand up on them where ever possible. Infact i've been known to let Merseyrail ones go past for a FNW 142. and even when i've been at Victoria and i've been Going on the Kirkby line i've caught Southport trains instead to avoid the Awful Units and then change back at Wigan and when i was Coming from Kirkby i used to Change to the Airport Service at Wigan just to avoid Ex Merseyrail and Ex Atn Units..
Luckily today i made a Few Wigan-Orrell Trips and we had 156490 (Not to Bad a Unit even if it was 30 Mins Late) 142033 142056 (Missed out on this Torture thank god) and 150143 so 3 Good Units and a Merseyrail 142 aint to bad for our line. Also there was Some guy photographing women from Below at Orrell Trainstation and no one said anything which i thought was peculiar.

 

[WillPS]

You've got to admit that the ATN refubished 142s are pretty nice - 2x2 high backed comfy seats Whenever the 07.51 Chelford-Mcr is formed of 2x142s, I always check the type of seats are in each one before boarding - ATN refurbed wins every time over Merseyrail/FNW 142s

Unless there's some different refurbished ones that I don't know about, I definitely disagree. The Arriva ones I've seen are a bloody disgrace, the seats are falling apart and barely reach the bottom on my neck - can't get comfy on them at all. I also don't like the 'Metro' liveried pacers - that colour scheme is terrible.

I get on a lot better with the bench/bus seated 142s.

Northern are doing a pretty good job doing up their trains, I've noticed. It's always a let down to get an ex-Central 158 (as I invariably do) on Nottingham - Sheffield.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Well the Ex Central ones are being refurbed atm by both Northern and EMT so i doubt you'll put up with them for much longer

 

[WillPS]

The one thing I will miss is the moquette used on the seats, it's very jolly, whereas both Northern and EMT's new efforts are a bit too serious business for my liking.

 

[alex57601]

Time to set the record straight here...

FACT - Northern have an acute shortage of units and are struggling to provide capacity where it is needed the most
FACT - The 180s are on short-term lease until May/June 2010 once the 142s return from FGW. The idiot that suggested they should go to EMT clearly overlooked the severe implications of this for Northern when it comes to delivering the service
FACT - The 158s at ScotRail (782/786/789/867-871) are sub-leased from Northern and are due back once the refurbishment of their own 158s is complete. And it is also worth pointing out that one unit (868 I think) was stood at Haymarket for a year doing NOTHING
FACT - A few of the 158s are paid for by Metro (WYPTE)/Yorkshire Forward, so are usually used on Yorkshire-area services. They spread their wings by being allocated to Leeds-Manchester Vic via Hebden Bridge, Blackpool North-York, Leeds-Carlisle and Leeds-Nottingham services, with a very occasional appearance on services allocated to Heaton-based units

 

[Chilled Phill]

Many thanks for the clarifications there, Alex.

 

[TEW]

FACT - The 180s are on short-term lease until May/June 2010 once the 142s return from FGW. The idiot that suggested they should go to EMT clearly overlooked the severe implications of this for Northern when it comes to delivering the service

I wouldn't bet on 142s coming back from FGW in 2010. Remember when Northern took 12 158s of FGW, FGW got 12 142s from Northern, many of which were handed back last December. FGW now desperately need the 142s as long as possible.

 

[Bush]

Or send the 142s which Northern took off (5x142s) FGW and send them back to Exeter where they were looked after much better, meaning FGW don't have to lease an expensive LHCS. That leaves Northern with 2 spare units.

Simple.

Naa,

They can keep em, we'll have 5 of they're 150/1's instead, easier maintenance and half decent cab and interior! (after retrim and respray that is! )
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wouldn't bet on 142s coming back from FGW in 2010. Remember when Northern took 12 158s of FGW, FGW got 12 142s from Northern, many of which were handed back last December. FGW now desperately need the 142s as long as possible.

June 2010 is they're due back date. Funny, they're C5P (Repaints) are due Autumn 2009 onwards, be interesting what they turn them out in, neutral blue?

 

[Stonesourscotty]

With the 142's Nearly all repainted it would be strange for Northern liveried 142's to be Cascaded when fairly freshly repainted

 

[350401]

I'd stake money that none of Northerns current non-oldham loop 142s will be going anywhere - they are needed where they are! NT are so short of trains, many are currently short-formed. I'd also have a wager that the Oldham loop 142s will remain at Northern, given thats who currently operates them(?) and it would be pointless to send them elsewhere. I can think of many services that will benefit from an additional 7 142s (the 07.51 Chelford-Mcr being a start ) - the only place NT's pacers will go after Northern is to the scrapheap!

As for the 7 FGW still have on loan from NT, I agree, I'd be (pleasantly) suprised if they do return North in 2010 given FGW's capacity shortage. It depends how many 150s and 172s FGW get before then I guess?

 

[alex57601]

142s spare from Oldham Loop closure are to stay at Northern.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Just out of interest, speaking of the pacers due back in 2010, would these be kept on at Northern in view of the new rolling stock that is to be ordered? I know that is probably a few years away. Plus, we have not spoken about the possibilty of Leeds and Manchester routes becoming electrified.

142s spare from Oldham Loop closure are to stay at Northern.

What is your source of information? You seem quite assured of this prophecy!

 

[bluenoxid]

What is your source of information? You seem quite assured of this prophecy!

Tomato Sauce confirms, Brown Sauce is off the sausage and mint sauce is in the field.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

Glad to see a Kirkby Strengthened to 4 Car's today it was the 11:47 from Orrell and was Formed on GS Liveried 142004 and 150143 142004 is still a good Runner.

 

[devon_metro]

It spent a few months down south thats why, where the units are looked after! Should see the MPC figures for the Exeter 142 fleet!