Arriva Rail North DOO

[wingsoveryorks]

And of course 50% of services will still be traditional guard and driver anyway.....and with the big increase in the numbers of services overall, I rather think that todays numbers of actual guards will be the same number when everything does eventually fall into place...which I suspect will be years off at the moment

I tend to agree. It would go on seniority as these things always have, and I'm near the top of the tree at my depot.
That said, I quite fancy not having to faff around with the doors on a Saturday night when the drunks are out in force. DCO could have certain advantages. Always look on the bright side of life.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

I found the quote below from Mick Cash some years ago when the idea of new trains for Northern were being put about. Oh dear Mick, Those light years are very short these days.
But this just typifies the RMT's thinking. Enjoy.

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Mick Cash RMT general secretary said: "These plans are being spun by Nick Clegg and the Tories in a pre-election stunt that they claim will modernise rail services in the North when in reality they will condemn passengers to poor quality, unsafe and destaffed services for years to come.”
He added: "Any new trains are light years away with passengers forced to endure the misery of the clapped out Pacers, and the ancient London Underground rolling stock that's heading north‎, way off into the future.
"Far from the ‘Northern Powerhouse’ rhetoric of George Osborne these plans condemn the north to third class rail services for years to come and are smeared in PR gloss about new trains that is all jam tomorrow

 

[Solent&Wessex]

There are a number of posters here who write as though Northern / Arriva have an option to change their plans and they have the choice to guarantee a member of safety critical staff on each train.

They do not.

The tender documents stated what was required.

The franchise agreement states the final contract.

And that contract states that a certain % (which is redacted) has to be able to operate without a conductor or any other member of staff. Whether the plans are made public or not - and I don't believe for one minute that they don't actually have a plan - it doesn't alter the fact that Arriva simply cannot agree to what the RMT is demanding. So any strike can go on for years and years, unless the DfT changes it's mind and re-writes the contract then it will achieve absolutely nothing.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

There are a number of posters here who write as though Northern / Arriva have an option to change their plans and they have the choice to guarantee a member of safety critical staff on each train.

They do not.

The tender documents stated what was required.

The franchise agreement states the final contract.

And that contract states that a certain % (which is redacted) has to be able to operate without a conductor or any other member of staff. Whether the plans are made public or not - and I don't believe for one minute that they don't actually have a plan - it doesn't alter the fact that Arriva simply cannot agree to what the RMT is demanding. So any strike can go on for years and years, unless the DfT changes it's mind and re-writes the contract then it will achieve absolutely nothing.

Nobody has said that at all. 50% of mileage means there will still be a lot of safety critical staff on Arriva trains. It gives Arriva options should they need to use a non DCO unit in the event of a train failure. It is win win for Arriva if they can pull it off.

 

[Starmill]

There's a real lack of detail from the top in this franchise. Perhaps it's all in my head but I feel like DOO is not the only thing that's an absolute requirement of the contract that we are still clueless about. My point about staffing, ticket machines, Penalty Fare schemes etc is in a similar situation. Getting the revenue in is equally as critical to the business as having the right staff at the right time.

 

[muz379]

There are a number of posters here who write as though Northern / Arriva have an option to change their plans and they have the choice to guarantee a member of safety critical staff on each train.

They do not.

The tender documents stated what was required.

The franchise agreement states the final contract.

And that contract states that a certain % (which is redacted) has to be able to operate without a conductor or any other member of staff. Whether the plans are made public or not - and I don't believe for one minute that they don't actually have a plan - it doesn't alter the fact that Arriva simply cannot agree to what the RMT is demanding. So any strike can go on for years and years, unless the DfT changes it's mind and re-writes the contract then it will achieve absolutely nothing.

Yeah people are rightly mistaken for thinking Ariva would go back to go to the DFT and try and renegotiate in the interests of their employees . Although I am sure if the revenue figures went through the floor and it risked Arivas bottom line and shareholders dividends they would be banging the DFT's door down trying to renogitate the subsidy

There's a real lack of detail from the top in this franchise. Perhaps it's all in my head but I feel like DOO is not the only thing that's an absolute requirement of the contract that we are still clueless about. My point about staffing, ticket machines, Penalty Fare schemes etc is in a similar situation. Getting the revenue in is equally as critical to the business as having the right staff at the right time.

I agree station staffing , changes to job role and penalty fare stuff is just as much an unknown . I suspect that the company fears once it announces those plans booking office staff might go into dispute as well . and as you said without effective ways to get revenue in the business suffers . Its just found that out the hard way with star mobile .

 

[northwichcat]

And of course 50% of services will still be traditional guard and driver anyway.....and with the big increase in the numbers of services overall, I rather think that todays numbers of actual guards will be the same number when everything does eventually fall into place...which I suspect will be years off at the moment

50% of mileage not services, which means by running semi-fast and express services without guards the proportion of services with guards can be much higher than if they were planning to run slow stoppers without guards. However, I agree with the rest of your post.

 

[northwichcat]

I found the quote below from Mick Cash some years ago when the idea of new trains for Northern were being put about. Oh dear Mick, Those light years are very short these days.
But this just typifies the RMT's thinking. Enjoy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He was still going on about destaffing stations on the day the new franchise started, despite the ITT and new franchise agreement requiring an increase in station staffing. He also claimed Corbyn backed them in their fight to prevent station destaffing so that's two people who never read either the ITT or the franchise agreement before deciding it included something which was dismissed at the consultation stage.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before but the agreement requires 55 security personnel (based at Newcastle) to provide a presence on late night services to help reduce crime.

 

[northwichcat]

We know there is a plan. That plan is fairly well advanced also. It is the timings that are questionable. Arriva don't want war to break out before they have any DCO units. I know one route DCO is not going due to station difficulties, although many think it is. Some secrets leak out from some surprising sources.

The plan might contain a few variables in it. For instance, to start new services now they require additional guards but if some of the new services are delayed and start at the same time as DCO then they might not need to employ as many new guards between now and when DCO starts. Having less guards on the books reduces the risk of redundancy for existing guards.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before but the agreement requires 55 security personnel (based at Newcastle) to provide a presence on late night services to help reduce crime.

ARN have already 'recruited' 55 "Travel Safe Officers" by way of agency staff, these 55 "TSOs" replaced the 22 strong "Rail Response Team".

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

ARN have already 'recruited' 55 "Travel Safe Officers" by way of agency staff, these 55 "TSOs" replaced the 22 strong "Rail Response Team".

What has then happened to the 22 strong "Rail Response Team" that have now been replaced?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What has then happened to the 22 strong "Rail Response Team" that have now been replaced?

I presume they are now TSOs, though I've not been able to confirm that.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

The plan might contain a few variables in it. For instance, to start new services now they require additional guards but if some of the new services are delayed and start at the same time as DCO then they might not need to employ as many new guards between now and when DCO starts. Having less guards on the books reduces the risk of redundancy for existing guards.

They need new guards for the massive increase in services that are planned. It is not just guards, I have never seen so many new drivers coming through. You have to hand it to Arriva, they haven't hung about in getting staff in place to introduce what they plan to do.
Personally, I'm quietly optimistic that this will not be another Southern, so long as the RMT doesn't make it one.

 

[sandyravage]

I don't think anyone wants a repeat of the Southern fiasco. I get the feeling from depots I've been too that a dispute is now inevitable though.

 

[HH]

I presume they are now TSOs, though I've not been able to confirm that.

That was the plan elsewhere, where this (possibly purely cosmetic) name change was planned.

It's amazing what super powers a simple name change can grant!

 

[muz379]

I presume they are now TSOs, though I've not been able to confirm that.

I know of at least a few staff members who used to work for the rail response team who are now TSO's

 

[Lemmy99uk]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before but the agreement requires 55 security personnel (based at Newcastle) to provide a presence on late night services to help reduce crime.

Some are required to be based at Newcastle, but not all.

 

[WatcherZero]

RMT seems to be confused about what DOO is, theyve released a press release saying Alex Hynes opposed DOO because he said he wanted staff with ticket machines selling tickets onboard.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-prepares-to-announce-northern-rail-strike-ballot-result/

 

[LowLevel]

To be fair, he did, it's just as booked the RMT don't pick apart the right stuff. I do believe he said that in his opinion guards weren't redundant and had more to give to the railway, but it was up to them to show it now.

 

[northwichcat]

Alex Hynes' original response to DOO related to Abellio/Serco Northern after the RMT balloted on industrial action against the old operator for what the new operator may have done, which was deemed an illegal ballot as a strike can only be against your current employer.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Alex Hynes knew the score. Note how he has joined 'Scotrail' Government driven on the back of the 'Mcnulty report'
Just sad that Labour led PTE's are backing Grayling. No wonder nobody wants to vote Labour anymore. Enjoy your decades in opposition mugs.

 

[PR1Berske]

BBC Northwest Twitter confirming RMT ballot result in favour of industrial action on Northern and Merseyrail

 

[wingsoveryorks]

BBC Northwest Twitter confirming RMT ballot result in favour of industrial action on Northern and Merseyrail

Let's roll. This will make Southern look like a petty squabble.

 

[Kite159]

Let's roll. This will make Southern look like a petty squabble.

Indeed it will.

RMT, bringing down this working class hating government since 2015 (in the words of their president). Mick Castro must be laughing away knowing he can inflict more pain on the regular users of the railways, eventually forcing them to make use of their private transport to avoid an unreliable service.

At least car transport is a lot more safer :roll:

 

[speedy_sticks]

Indeed it will.

RMT, bringing down this working class hating government since 2015 (in the words of their president). Mick Castro must be laughing away knowing he can inflict more pain on the regular users of the railways, eventually forcing them to make use of their private transport to avoid an unreliable service.

At least car transport is a lot more safer :roll:

You really need to use a wheelchair on your travels sometime....

 

[PR1Berske]

Tweet from BBC Northwest : https://twitter.com/BBCNWT/status/836552060866871296



Text of tweet:

RMT: 24 hour strikes on Arriva Northern services and Merseyrail planned for March 13th.
Members voted 80% in favour of strikes.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Tweet from BBC Northwest : https://twitter.com/BBCNWT/status/836552060866871296



Text of tweet:

Oh, a Monday not at work. Let me see what job I was on. Yep, result.

 

[wingsoveryorks]

Indeed it will.

RMT, bringing down this working class hating government since 2015 (in the words of their president). Mick Castro must be laughing away knowing he can inflict more pain on the regular users of the railways, eventually forcing them to make use of their private transport to avoid an unreliable service.

At least car transport is a lot more safer :roll:

It doesn't need to be like this does it. I have listened carefully to both sides of the argument. I have spoken by email to the top bosses and heard what they have to say. The more I hear, the more I think they are lying. But I don't blame them entirely, it is clear who is behind this, and it is not them.

Shame on the Labour led PTE's also. Don't any Labour candidate come knocking on my door in the future begging for votes.

 

[Starmill]

Oh, a Monday not at work. Let me see what job I was on. Yep, result.

IMO this kind of thing is deeply inappropriate. Thanks for your bad taste. You will not win any allies this way.