Virgin Pulls all AP Fares on peak evening service from Euston

[Gareth Marston]

1643 Euston to Edinburgh via Birmingham weekdays.

Hi Gareth,



I’ve spoken to our Yield team and that service we will be only offering walk- up fares. Could you update your customer it’s a new strategy that been implemented by VT.



Thanks



Debs

 

[All Line Rover]

There are already selected services (single Euston-Birmingham-Scotland Voyagers) where no Advance fares are offered.

A perfectly sensible approach, especially on services such as the 16:43 which, even though a double-Voyager, are consistently standing room only.

 

[All Line Rover]

Also worth noting that, until recently, the 18:03 Euston to Wolverhampton 9-car Pendolino only had walk-up fares. Now it has some oddly cheap (for a peak service) Advance fares for passengers able to book far in advance. As a season ticket holder I prefer the former approach, as the train wasn't almost full.

 

[JaJaWa]

Doesn't it make sense for them to offer Advances a couple of £ cheaper than the walk up fare to predict demand and keep all of the revenue rather than sharing it with other operators?

 

[All Line Rover]

Do they share any of the Any Permitted ticket sales between Euston and the West Midlands?

I'm not sure why predicting demand would be useful. A 10-car Voyager provides the maximum number of standard class seats possible.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It's worth noting the quoted reply from VT in the first post only applies to that one early evening train.

The subject line could be misread as applying to all evening peak services. (OK, I admit I misread it as meaning that on first glance!)

 

[Gareth Marston]

The xx43's always seem to sell out of AP quicker than other trains between Euston and the West Midlands. Journey Planners always offer them as the best connecting trains onto ATW services west of Birmingham which means there carrying more interchange passengers than the other EBW trains.

We've been offering people the xx23's and telling them if you don't mind waiting longer at INTL or New St you can potentially save £ for some time. However the average Joe who goes online themselves will not know.

 

[All Line Rover]

The xx43's always seem to sell out of AP quicker than other trains between Euston and the West Midlands. Journey Planners always offer them as the best connecting trains onto ATW services west of Birmingham which means there carrying more interchange passengers than the other EBW trains.

They also call at Milton Keynes, which doesn't help. There are considerably more passengers and the 16:43 evening "peak" service is, in fact, off-peak throughout (Euston to Milton Keynes, Milton Keynes to Birmingham, etc).

 

[Gareth Marston]

They also call at Milton Keynes, which doesn't help. There are considerably more passengers and the 16:43 evening "peak" service is, in fact, off-peak throughout (Euston to Milton Keynes, Milton Keynes to Birmingham, etc).

The 1643 is the last Off Peak to Milton Keynes so yet another problem associated with the pricing cliff.

If your heading to Barmouth or anywhere else on the Cambrian Coast the 1643 is the last official train of the day from London. So no chance of AP even though you leave London before the hordes finish work and dont reach you destination till gone 2100!

 

[MikeWh]

Do they share any of the Any Permitted ticket sales between Euston and the West Midlands?

I'd imagine London Midland get a share. Chiltern?

 

[Merseysider]

I'd imagine London Midland get a share. Chiltern?

LM would get pennies on the pound, surely, given that (all?) their services are overtaken or slower, hence their price dumping on their own dedicated fares.

 

[amateur]

The 1643 is the last Off Peak to Milton Keynes so yet another problem associated with the pricing cliff.

an

When is the last off peak departure to Mkc on London midland?

 

[All Line Rover]

16:46. Also a very busy train (usually 8-cars).

 

[Starmill]

If another operator runs a direct train, they're likely to pick up something depending on the allocation used. But as its unlikely that they feature in many of the fastest journey itineraries, it will be very small. For a London Terminals to Birmingham Stations ticket for example, the booking engine will sometimes give you LM between Birmingham and Rugby too. The same applies to a journey from London to Manchester that uses XC. If a rival only provides journeys which are overtaken (as opposed to just slow), it may be that they receive nothing at all - perhaps someone can shed more light on that.

However, if the ticket were London to Wolverhampton, VT run lots of direct trains and there's just one LM that does that, so it might be a bit less. XC often features in the fastest journeys from London to Wolverhampton though with a change at Birmingham New Street. Chiltern never does from what I can see. Without knowing the details of the allocation nobody can see. But looking at all of the fastest journeys suggests the revenue will have to be split, but that it will be a very small amount that goes to another TOC.

 

[amateur]

16:46. Also a very busy train (usually 8-cars).

And if you arrive 4 minutes later? Is the 16:50 to MKC classed as Peak?

 

[John @ home]

Is the 16:50 to MKC classed as Peak?

Assuming you mean for a passenger using the return leg of an Off-Peak Return or Off-Peak Day Return route Virgin WestCoast Milton Keynes C - London Terminals, yes it is.

Restriction Code: LW

Applicable days: Mondays to Fridays.

Outward Travel: Not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Terminals or Kensington Olympia after 04:29 and before 10:00.

Return Travel: Not valid on trains timed to depart from London Terminals before 09:15 and after 16:49 and before 19:01.

Seasonal variations: Evening peak restriction ONLY is lifted on Friday 23 December, Wednesday 28 December, Thursday 29 December and Friday 30 December 2016.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/lw

 

[Doctor Fegg]

There are already selected services (single Euston-Birmingham-Scotland Voyagers) where no Advance fares are offered.

A perfectly sensible approach, especially on services such as the 16:43 which, even though a double-Voyager, are consistently standing room only.

Absolutely. I wish more TOCs would refuse to sell discount Advances on trains which can be filled by Anytime/Off-Peak tickets (looking at you, CrossCountry).

 

[snail]

Absolutely. I wish more TOCs would refuse to sell discount Advances on trains which can be filled by Anytime/Off-Peak tickets (looking at you, CrossCountry).

The TPE Manchester - Scotland services are the same, especially the midweek afternoon services. At least in the morning peak they no longer put reservations on the 0744 from Preston, giving commuters from Lancaster and Preston the chance of getting a seat.

 

[Gareth Marston]

They also call at Milton Keynes, which doesn't help. There are considerably more passengers and the 16:43 evening "peak" service is, in fact, off-peak throughout (Euston to Milton Keynes, Milton Keynes to Birmingham, etc).

Through fare to BHM New St is £88.00 for single in standard, £39.30 if you split it at Milton Keynes!

 

[Tetchytyke]

Absolutely. I wish more TOCs would refuse to sell discount Advances on trains which can be filled by Anytime/Off-Peak tickets (looking at you, CrossCountry).

As always, don't assume that Advance tickets mean "discount" tickets.

In many cases, an Advance ticket priced £5 below the walk-up fare will give significantly more revenue to the TOC than the walk-up ticket will.

ETA: I'd imagine a significant number of passengers on that train are season ticket holders, particularly to Milton Keynes Central. A season ticket is discounted far in excess of what most AP fares at that time of day are.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Absolutely. I wish more TOCs would refuse to sell discount Advances on trains which can be filled by Anytime/Off-Peak tickets (looking at you, CrossCountry).

The 1643 is a genuine peak hour service not a fake yield management one so yes I can agree with that in principle. However the cheaper AP fares have encouraged the excessive Anytime ones. If Anytime came down as compensation perhaps some happy median can be reached. However that's a system for people who use the railway not for those obsessed with extracting as much fare revenue as possible!

Peak should be arriving into a big city between 0730 & 0929 and leaving between 1630 & 1829 (with maybe London being 1615 to 1844). None of this nonsense about going into big cities at 1850 being peak.

Ban AP's within peaks and adjust Anytime downward.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Through fare to BHM New St is £88.00 for single in standard, £39.30 if you split it at Milton Keynes!

That's only because VT's franchise agreement prohibits evening peak restrictions northbound from MKC. They would impose them in a flash if they were allowed to - in fact they did for a bit and had to remove them when they were pulled up on it.

This does cause some silly fares - look at Advances on services departing MKC northbound between 1700-1830ish. They tend to be well in excess of the valid Off Peak Single.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

As always, don't assume that Advance tickets mean "discount" tickets.

In many cases, an Advance ticket priced £5 below the walk-up fare will give significantly more revenue to the TOC than the walk-up ticket will.

Which I guess is ultimately a result of the prohibition on fare-setting TOCs creating their own "TOC ONLY" walk-up fares. Relaxing this restriction seems to have worked well enough at Milton Keynes - perhaps it's time for it to be removed nationwide...

 

[Gareth Marston]

As always, don't assume that Advance tickets mean "discount" tickets.

In many cases, an Advance ticket priced £5 below the walk-up fare will give significantly more revenue to the TOC than the walk-up ticket will.

As Ive said before what I see is alarming we don't have a TVM here so I get to see what folk buy on TOD. "Its cheaper on the internet syndrome".

Walk On fares of less than a £10 with booking fees, credit card fees and the persons driven to the station the lunchtime before to collect. Anytimes bought when their traveling in the off peak, Any Permitted when they travel cheaper route specific way, 2 Anytime Singles instead of the Anytime Day Return at half the price, Split AP's OUT and Split Anytime Singles back when the off peak return was cheaper etc etc

Let the general public loose on websites to book tickets - kerching there all convinced they've saved when in fact they've paid more.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which I guess is ultimately a result of the prohibition on fare-setting TOCs creating their own "TOC ONLY" walk-up fares. Relaxing this restriction seems to have worked well enough at Milton Keynes - perhaps it's time for it to be removed nationwide...

Has it really? The fares are within about 50p of each other and can't really reduce any further. All it does is cause confusion and limit choice. It's be easier for everyone if they just set the interavailable fare to the average of (income from) all the fares and competed for actual usage based on quality, frequency etc, to alter the ORCATS distribution.

By the way, they haven't "relaxed the restriction" at all, it's an anomaly caused by a change to the fare-setting TOC. MKC-London used to be a VTWC-set fare, it switched some time ago to being LM-set (possibly even in Silverlink days) as commuter services have progressively increased in frequency and speed over time. LM (SS) were allowed to keep any TOC specific fares they already had but not add any new ones, as is always the case when this happens. VT of course, as no longer the lead operator, can set theirs as they wish.

Here's an idea.

When we eventually move to true e-ticketing, which has to happen soon enough, ORCATS could be replaced by revenue distribution based on actual usage. So if the TOC grips the ticket, they get the revenue. If nobody grips it, the revenue is split based on usage of tickets which are gripped. So there's an incentive for TOCs to do proper on-board checks, too.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 1643 is the last Off Peak to Milton Keynes so yet another problem associated with the pricing cliff.
If your heading to Barmouth or anywhere else on the Cambrian Coast the 1643 is the last official train of the day from London. So no chance of AP even though you leave London before the hordes finish work and dont reach you destination till gone 2100!

I see the Cambrian stations take restriction VJ for Off Peak Returns to Euston (SVR).
So there are no evening return restrictions on that fare, and EUS arrival after 1000 is allowed, much less onerous than fares from Shrewsbury and eastwards.
This is similar to North Wales stations which take restriction VK, which bans just one peak train back, the 1610 (single Voyager).

The VT policy seems to be that Advances are limited (or pointlessly high) on trains with these low off-peak restrictions.

 

[Statto]

The TPE Manchester - Scotland services are the same, especially the midweek afternoon services. At least in the morning peak they no longer put reservations on the 0744 from Preston, giving commuters from Lancaster and Preston the chance of getting a seat.

As should TPE Leeds-Liverpool & EMT Manchester-Liverpool, all these services are heaving in the afternoon peaks.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I see the Cambrian stations take restriction VJ for Off Peak Returns to Euston (SVR).
So there are no evening return restrictions on that fare, and EUS arrival after 1000 is allowed, much less onerous than fares from Shrewsbury and eastwards.
This is similar to North Wales stations which take restriction VK, which bans just one peak train back, the 1610 (single Voyager).

The VT policy seems to be that Advances are limited (or pointlessly high) on trains with these low off-peak restrictions.

The low tier £8.00 AP's between EUS and BHM seem to have disappeared as well in the evening peak services either side of the 1643 - £22.00 lowest seems to be the norm even looking into August.

Many are in the habit of splitting AP tickets at Birmingham from the Cambrian. The lowest tier AP from Newtown to BHM is £8.50 now so if £22.00 is the norm between BHM and EUS then £61.00 cheapest AP is not offering much advantage over the £68.10 Off Peak Return.

However if your in Shropshire getting hold of the £22.00 AP's will still save you compared with the Anytimes.

 

[All Line Rover]

When has VTWC ever offered £8 STD AP fares on peak EUS to BHM services? £22 is a lot cheaper than typical fares available last year, where £50+ was the norm. Given the reasonable off-peak restrictions for passengers for whom the 16:43 is the last available departure, it doesn't really matter that AP fares are not available on it as they would be no cheaper.

 

[Gareth Marston]

When has VTWC ever offered £8 STD AP fares on peak EUS to BHM services? £22 is a lot cheaper than typical fares available last year, where £50+ was the norm. Given the reasonable off-peak restrictions for passengers for whom the 16:43 is the last available departure, it doesn't really matter that AP fares are not available on it as they would be no cheaper.

Have booked them in past though only way ahead.

I can find £11.00 AP's on the 0850 BHM to EUS on weekdays in June. The 0850 being a "peak" service.