Virgin Pulls all AP Fares on peak evening service from Euston

[Starmill]

That's only because VT's franchise agreement prohibits evening peak restrictions northbound from MKC. They would impose them in a flash if they were allowed to - in fact they did for a bit and had to remove them when they were pulled up on it.

I recently came across this issue. A friend bought an Milton Keynes C to Manchester Stations Off-Peak Return. NRE confirms (scroll all the way down to restrictions) that BR Fares is not wrong and the restriction code is 9I

Outward:

Not valid on trains timed to depart:
London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45, except for Easements shown below;
London Kings Cross after 02:59 and before 09:06 or after 14:59 and before 18:59 (and before 18:15 on Fridays);
London Liverpool Street after 04:29 and before 09:31 or after 16:28 and before 18:35;
London Marylebone after 06:29 and before 09:00 or after 16:00 and before 19:00;
London Paddington after 04:29 and before 08:10 or after 16:40 and before 18:31;
London St Pancras International after 04:29 and before 10:26 or after 15:15 and before 18:59;
London Waterloo after 04:29 and before 08:15;
Kensington Olympia after 04:29 and before 09:15 or after 15:14 and before 18:12;
Clapham Junction after 04:29 and before 09:30;
Bedford after 04:29 and before 09:01;
Luton or Luton Airport Parkway after 04:29 and before 09:01 or after 16:29 and before 18:59;
Milton Keynes Central after 04:29 and before 09:51;
Reading after 04:29 and before 08:35 or after 17:10 and before 19:01;
Stevenage after 02:59 and before 09:19 or after 15:06 and before 19:01 (and before 18:35 on Fridays);
Stratford (London) after 04:29 and before 09:30 or after 16:29 and before 18:34;
Watford Junction after 04:29 and before 09:38 or after 15:00 and before 18:38.

etc.

So it says one is not permitted to use a train timed to depart London Euston after 1500 and before 1845.

However if you go back to the journey planner it happily offers you the ticket for all of the trains that do precisely that. Other journey planners agree, including VT's. The button that says 'other services you can use' even shows you these services can be used.



So what gives? Have they forgotten to re-write the restriction text? Seems unlikely. Perhaps more likely is that the point at the bottom about being it not being permitted to depart Milton Keynes Central "after 04:29 and before 09:51" is intended to override the other restrictions. Interesting!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The wording is wrong and always has been. Though I'm not sure how to word it correctly and retain the meaning, which is essentially to do with your ticketed journey. That's clearly the intention, as otherwise the lines on MKC and WFJ (and Luton etc) would be spurious information.

When they implemented evening peak restrictions from MKC it was on the MKC line - it was actually stricter than from Euston, i.e. there were trains that were off-peak from Euston at the end of the evening peak that weren't from MKC.

Perhaps it should say something like:
London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45
except when boarding at Milton Keynes Central with a ticketed origin north of and not including Watford Junction and not travelling via London Euston or Watford Junction, in which case after 04:29 and before 09:51 only
etc.

 

[Starmill]

Surely the answer is just not to use 9I for those tickets? I was giving less than helpful advice as a result. I usually consult the restriction text directly rather than the journey planner, because the journey planners are usually wrong - e.g. barring evening services on a 2V Off-Peak Return.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the answer is just not to use 9I for those tickets? I was giving less than helpful advice as a result. I usually consult the restriction text directly rather than the journey planner, because the journey planners are usually wrong - e.g. barring evening services on a 2V Off-Peak Return.

It would be better if they split the restriction, yes.

But until then...the correct interpretation is that the times from Euston don't apply to tickets with an origin north of Watford Junction when not travelling via Watford Junction. The times from MKC should be used instead. The journey planner confirms this, as do many, many journeys made by myself on Off Peak tickets from MKC northbound in the evening!

By the way you can see what is implemented by looking at the fare on BRFares and scrolling down. The only way to implement "trains departing from X even if you're not on it at that point" is to bar the whole train, which is done for the 1610 Euston-North Wales but not this one. That restriction is not implemented that way, it's implemented based on where you board.

Take a look at this one for that implementation - and it seems until May it's implemented wrongly so the journey planner will show it as barred from MKC! (And yes I have used that train with an Off Peak and it was accepted without question).

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=MKC&dest=BNG&grpo=J511&tkt=SVR

 

[All Line Rover]

Surely the answer is just not to use 9I for those tickets? I was giving less than helpful advice as a result. I usually consult the restriction text directly rather than the journey planner, because the journey planners are usually wrong - e.g. barring evening services on a 2V Off-Peak Return.

I suspect VTWC is hoping the DfT will eventually allow there to be afternoon peak restrictions on regulated fares from Milton Keynes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect VTWC is hoping the DfT will eventually allowed there to be afternoon peak restrictions on regulated fares from Milton Keynes.

I expect they are, and really there isn't much of an argument for not having them, to be honest. There used to be one in the days when VT carried most commuters - trains would be full of spare seats once they'd all bailed out at MKC - but that is no longer the case.

 

[infobleep]

That's only because VT's franchise agreement prohibits evening peak restrictions northbound from MKC. They would impose them in a flash if they were allowed to - in fact they did for a bit and had to remove them when they were pulled up on it.

This does cause some silly fares - look at Advances on services departing MKC northbound between 1700-1830ish. They tend to be well in excess of the valid Off Peak Single.

Why would they price them in excess of the off peak single? What is the advantage in doing so?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would they price them in excess of the off peak single? What is the advantage in doing so?

There isn't one. It just seems that they are (or were, they may have fixed it or dropped them by now) priced thinking there are evening peak restrictions from MKC northbound - it's just that there aren't, so nobody in their right mind buys one.

First Class is also disproportionately expensive for a similar reason.

 

[Starmill]

By the way you can see what is implemented by looking at the fare on BRFares and scrolling down. The only way to implement "trains departing from X even if you're not on it at that point" is to bar the whole train, which is done for the 1610 Euston-North Wales but not this one. That restriction is not implemented that way, it's implemented based on where you board.

I'm aware. But BRfares is no defence if a dispute is raised regarding the validity of the ticket. It's common for restriction codes which offer no afternoon restriction to actually have electronic restrictions that do not permit leaving London.

The problem is this interpretation of wording is a troublesome one. Elsewhere, the opposite interpretation is used. I am reminded of a South West Trains example where a restriction from Clapham Junction was less strict than from London Waterloo, but as it was 'trains timed to depart London Waterloo between...' they argued that it was still not permitted. I am unhappy with the idea that there is this custom for every individual restriction code to be written in a different way as it is, without having a different 'interpretation' of the same thing being 'meant' at different operators.

There isn't one. It just seems that they are (or were, they may have fixed it or dropped them by now) priced thinking there are evening peak restrictions from MKC northbound - it's just that there aren't, so nobody in their right mind buys one.

First Class is also disproportionately expensive for a similar reason.

It could also be that they've had difficulty setting quotas so that trains appear very expensive from London and competitive from Milton Keynes.

 

[sheff1]

Why would they price them in excess of the off peak single? What is the advantage in doing so?

If they can get even a small % of people to buy them, they make more money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm aware. But BRfares is no defence if a dispute is raised regarding the validity of the ticket.

BRFares isn't, but that section of BRFares is what is implemented in the NRE Journey Planner, and I think it's pretty certain that if you got a printout from that showing what you did as OK then it *would* stand up in court.