Cross-City Electrification from Barnt Green to Bromsgrove

[jhy44]

I certainly hope further trains aren't shortened, the morning rush hour is awful when 3 coach trains turn up, standing room only after Northfield and not even standing room beyond Bournville.

I remember reading somewhere that initially (Dec 2017) just one train per hour will be extended from Longbridge to Bromsgrove (3tph Redditch, 2tph Longbridge, 1tph Bromsgrove), with the remaining two being extended on the start of the new franchise in 2018 when extra trains are available. I can't for the life of me however where I read this information unfortunately.

 

[IrishDave]

Okay, let's try and work this out. (Warning: this is very much a back-of-an-envelope calculation; corrections and comments appreciated.)

The plan, I believe, is for the 3tph that terminate at Longbridge to be extended to Bromsgrove. Judging by the current running times of 323s between Longbridge and Barnt Green, and by current running times of 170s booked to call at Barnt Green and Bromsgrove (namely 1V22 and 1M76), the journey from Longbridge to Bromsgrove should take about 9 minutes, with perhaps 11 minutes for the return working to account for climbing the Lickey.

Currently the Longbridge terminators arrive at xx13/33/53, and the Longbridge starters depart at xx22/42/02, with the units doing a shunt at Longbridge. That shunt won't be necessary at Bromsgrove. Even after allowing a few minutes to shoehorn it between the various XC paths, it looks the xx13 arrival at Longbridge could make it to Bromsgrove for about xx23, start back at xx31 and form what used to be the xx42 departure.

In other words, each Longbridge terminator effectively steps back by 20 minutes by going to Bromsgrove and back. By my reckoning that means you just need one extra unit. (I did check the diagrams - it gets a bit weird in the late evening, but it looks like you'd only need one more unit.)

If everything were 3-car, you'd only need 15 diagrams all day to run the Cross-City service (plus one extra unit in the morning for 2U10/2G10). In reality, there are 19 units out all day, with basically four diagrams running around all day as 6-car (though there is some swapping of pairings at Four Oaks). Two other units strengthen Cross-City services in the morning peak before switching to Wolves-Walsall runs.

So, either LM find one 350 from somewhere to replace a 323 on some more Wolves-Walsall runs, or one of the 6-car diagrams becomes 3-car to allow for the extensions to Bromsgrove. Not ideal, but could it be viable in the short term?

I certainly hope further trains aren't shortened, the morning rush hour is awful when 3 coach trains turn up, standing room only after Northfield and not even standing room beyond Bournville.

I remember reading somewhere that initially (Dec 2017) just one train per hour will be extended from Longbridge to Bromsgrove (3tph Redditch, 2tph Longbridge, 1tph Bromsgrove), with the remaining two being extended on the start of the new franchise in 2018 when extra trains are available. I can't for the life of me however where I read this information unfortunately.

Since the journey to and from Bromsgrove only adds 20 minutes, only extending to Bromsgrove hourly requires sitting the unit at Bromsgrove for 40 minutes - and still requires an extra unit over today's diagrams. So from the point of view of efficiency of rolling stock usage, it makes more sense to extend 3tph to Bromsgrove straight off.

That said, the crews who sign down to Bromsgrove may not currently be the same crews who sign 323s, so perhaps some time will be needed for route learning / traction learning to run the full service.

 

[gg1]

It is far from clear however whether the additional two 323s needed will be available to resource the extension. The 350s in the last order that should have released 323s for Bromsgrove have long been deployed to London area services and the 323 fleet is fully committed already. There was planned shortforming last autumn with one circuit running 3 vice 6 when the 323s were being retractioned.

I asked that very question in this thread a few months ago, the response was that LM do not fully utilise their 319s at present. Hopefully this should allow an internal cascade to release a few extra 323s for use on the cross city line.

 

[Class 170101]

If needed how about the Class 319s stored at Long Marston making a come back on the WCML releasing a Class 350 to New Street to International shuttles and then that 323 used on the Cross City?

 

[Sparks807Evo]

If needed how about the Class 319s stored at Long Marston making a come back on the WCML releasing a Class 350 to New Street to International shuttles and then that 323 used on the Cross City?

That would seem the most suitable short term solution.

Northern's 323s will very likely not be available by the close of this year with the CAFs not scheduled to start service until 2018. 321s would be preferable to 319s with the latter's reliability best termed as lacking currently with LM; but that is unlikely with nothing freed up from Anglia until next year...

 

[Class 170101]

Drivers would have lost competency on Class 321s by now.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Drivers would have lost competency on Class 321s by now.

Hadn't considered that actually - very true.

 

[ChrisHogan]

I asked that very question in this thread a few months ago, the response was that LM do not fully utilise their 319s at present. Hopefully this should allow an internal cascade to release a few extra 323s for use on the cross city line.

LM is currently short-forming by 3 or 4 units in each peak in and out of Euston - I would have thought if that if there was spare 319 capacity, it would already be being used.

 

[Ianno87]

Okay, let's try and work this out. (Warning: this is very much a back-of-an-envelope calculation; corrections and comments appreciated.)

The plan, I believe, is for the 3tph that terminate at Longbridge to be extended to Bromsgrove. Judging by the current running times of 323s between Longbridge and Barnt Green, and by current running times of 170s booked to call at Barnt Green and Bromsgrove (namely 1V22 and 1M76), the journey from Longbridge to Bromsgrove should take about 9 minutes, with perhaps 11 minutes for the return working to account for climbing the Lickey.

Currently the Longbridge terminators arrive at xx13/33/53, and the Longbridge starters depart at xx22/42/02, with the units doing a shunt at Longbridge. That shunt won't be necessary at Bromsgrove. Even after allowing a few minutes to shoehorn it between the various XC paths, it looks the xx13 arrival at Longbridge could make it to Bromsgrove for about xx23, start back at xx31 and form what used to be the xx42 departure.

In other words, each Longbridge terminator effectively steps back by 20 minutes by going to Bromsgrove and back. By my reckoning that means you just need one extra unit. (I did check the diagrams - it gets a bit weird in the late evening, but it looks like you'd only need one more unit.)

If everything were 3-car, you'd only need 15 diagrams all day to run the Cross-City service (plus one extra unit in the morning for 2U10/2G10). In reality, there are 19 units out all day, with basically four diagrams running around all day as 6-car (though there is some swapping of pairings at Four Oaks). Two other units strengthen Cross-City services in the morning peak before switching to Wolves-Walsall runs.

So, either LM find one 350 from somewhere to replace a 323 on some more Wolves-Walsall runs, or one of the 6-car diagrams becomes 3-car to allow for the extensions to Bromsgrove. Not ideal, but could it be viable in the short term?



Since the journey to and from Bromsgrove only adds 20 minutes, only extending to Bromsgrove hourly requires sitting the unit at Bromsgrove for 40 minutes - and still requires an extra unit over today's diagrams. So from the point of view of efficiency of rolling stock usage, it makes more sense to extend 3tph to Bromsgrove straight off.

That said, the crews who sign down to Bromsgrove may not currently be the same crews who sign 323s, so perhaps some time will be needed for route learning / traction learning to run the full service.

Good back-of-enveloping

But I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the Bromsgrove extensions have to wait at Longbridge for a few extra minutes in one direction or the other to allow XC services etc to overtake - so the 8 minute turnround time shrinks considerably, so one has to step back by 40 minutes at Longbridge in practice (i.e. 2 extra circuits necessary)

 

[IrishDave]

Good back-of-enveloping

But I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the Bromsgrove extensions have to wait at Longbridge for a few extra minutes in one direction or the other to allow XC services etc to overtake - so the 8 minute turnround time shrinks considerably, so one has to step back by 40 minutes at Longbridge in practice (i.e. 2 extra circuits necessary)

Yeah, looking in more detail, it does look a bit tight. But if you loop them at Longbridge, you end up with the problem of the train sitting at Bromsgrove for too long - i.e. if the turnaround time is longer than 17 minutes, it's going to need more than one platform at Bromsgrove, and as far as I know there's only really one platform (platform 3) that electric trains will be able to turn back in (correct me if I'm wrong).

Does anyone know if any changes are planned to the Birmingham-Hereford services when the Cross-City services are extended to Bromsgrove? If those were no longer to call at Bromsgrove, it would probably help with the timetabling, particularly heading towards Birmingham as the (diesel) train would be able to carry some speed up the Lickey...

 

[The Planner]

Some wouldn't have to sit as long as others, the xx.53 arrivals would have to sit for 5 minutes for the South West train to pass, the xx.13 could go straight away, the xx.33 would probably have to skip Barnt Green or the Cardiff would get knocked approaching Bromsgrove.

Actually scrap that, the xx.53 has got the Hereford to contend with, even skipping Barnt Green probably wouldn't work.

 

[Ianno87]

Some wouldn't have to sit as long as others, the xx.53 arrivals would have to sit for 5 minutes for the South West train to pass, the xx.13 could go straight away, the xx.33 would probably have to skip Barnt Green or the Cardiff would get knocked approaching Bromsgrove.

Actually scrap that, the xx.53 has got the Hereford to contend with, even skipping Barnt Green probably wouldn't work.

Is it the intention to call at Barnt Green in Bromsgrove services? 4-6tph strikes me as rather generous relative to the usage of the station!

 

[Kite159]

Yeah, looking in more detail, it does look a bit tight. But if you loop them at Longbridge, you end up with the problem of the train sitting at Bromsgrove for too long - i.e. if the turnaround time is longer than 17 minutes, it's going to need more than one platform at Bromsgrove, and as far as I know there's only really one platform (platform 3) that electric trains will be able to turn back in (correct me if I'm wrong).

Does anyone know if any changes are planned to the Birmingham-Hereford services when the Cross-City services are extended to Bromsgrove? If those were no longer to call at Bromsgrove, it would probably help with the timetabling, particularly heading towards Birmingham as the (diesel) train would be able to carry some speed up the Lickey...

Axing the Bromsgrove stop from the Hereford would basically be saying to the fine people of Bromsgrove that they have three stoppers to Birmingham instead of one fast an hour but they can't go West towards Worcester

On a note regarding the station signage, is there any reason why it is on a gold(ish) background compared to the usual LM black (new corporate branding as Bedworth is the same?)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Is it one of the stations coloured gold by LM to signify an Olympian coming from nearby? Sutton Coldfield and Leighton Buzzard are two others IIRC.

I have no idea how official it is, nor where I read it, but I was of the belief one of the three trains per hour would serve Barnt Green.

 

[BHXDMT]

On a note regarding the station signage, is there any reason why it is on a gold(ish) background compared to the usual LM black (new corporate branding as Bedworth is the same?)

Several stations were given "Gold" signage to celebrate Rio Olympic/Paralympic athletes that live/grew up there who won Gold. There's a few knocking about.

Edit: Beaten to it by MidnightFlyer!

 

[the sniper]

Another issue is that route knowledge by NS crews beyond Barnt Green is limited to those signing Worcester while probably the whole depot signs XCity so there is significant route training to be carried out as well.

Nobody at LM New Street signs Worcester, not officially anyway, neither on the Drivers or Guards side. One of a few routes that you'd be forgiven for thinking that New Street sensibly would/should sign, but can't... The only depot that sign Barnt Green to Droitwich are Worcester crew.

EDIT: Coventry and Wolverhampton also do Cross City work, so they'll need to sign Bromsgrove too.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Yeah, looking in more detail, it does look a bit tight. But if you loop them at Longbridge, you end up with the problem of the train sitting at Bromsgrove for too long - i.e. if the turnaround time is longer than 17 minutes, it's going to need more than one platform at Bromsgrove, and as far as I know there's only really one platform (platform 3) that electric trains will be able to turn back in (correct me if I'm wrong).

Does anyone know if any changes are planned to the Birmingham-Hereford services when the Cross-City services are extended to Bromsgrove? If those were no longer to call at Bromsgrove, it would probably help with the timetabling, particularly heading towards Birmingham as the (diesel) train would be able to carry some speed up the Lickey...

From the WM 2017 TSR:
2.6 From the Passenger Change Date in December 2017, three of the services per hour specified in Paragraphs 2.1 and 2.2 shall be extended from Longbridge to terminate at or originate from Bromsgrove. These services shall run at approximately 20-minute intervals. One of these services per hour shall call at Barnt Green.

There are no changes specified to the BNS-Hereford services in the same document, i.e. calls at Bromsgrove as now.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Axing the Bromsgrove stop from the Hereford would basically be saying to the fine people of Bromsgrove that they have three stoppers to Birmingham instead of one fast an hour but they can't go West towards Worcester

On a note regarding the station signage, is there any reason why it is on a gold(ish) background compared to the usual LM black (new corporate branding as Bedworth is the same?)

Bromsgrove was intended to have Centro (as it then was) as SFO rather than LM. This I believe is the reason for the non-standard signage. Centro then twigged that it needed a Station Licence to be an SFO and all that goes with it, and had to go 'cap in hand' to LM to ask it to run it for Centro, now TfWM. I think we had a lucky escape there as it certainly doesn't shine in running its bus stations.

 

[Class 170101]

I'm surprised there isn't a stop at Barnt Green currently for the Worcester / Cheltenham bound services. Currently people have to travel via University / New Street for most of the day to get in this direction.

 

[ChrisHogan]

I'm surprised there isn't a stop at Barnt Green currently for the Worcester / Cheltenham bound services. Currently people have to travel via University / New Street for most of the day to get in this direction.

I can't believe the DfT would want any more stops added to the Cardiff-Nottinghams. The original SRA spec. when they were introduced was a Cardiff to New Street journey time of no more than two hours and they have had stops progressively added to them (Chepstow or Lydney and a few Ashchurch stops) already while the Worcester(shire) Parkway white elephant is presumably going to be served by them as well. The path looks pretty hard-wired to me with virtually a minimum turnround at Cardiff precluding later arrivals and earlier departures while I can't believe that anybody wants to do any changes with the New Street area paths.

The extension of XCity to Bromsgrove will make Barnt Green to Worcester easier by changing at Bromsgrove (if there is any market for such journeys).

 

[Class 170101]

I understand the stops at Chepstow and Lydney were added without any deteriment to end to end journey times due to pathing being there being utilised for station stops instead. Stops are likely to be added soon for Worcester Parkway Station in these anyway

Whether the there is space in the timetable I don't know. However please note I wasn't just thinking of Barnt Green to Worcester /Cheltenham but to journeys between University and Barnt Green stations exclusive to west and south of Gloucester and Cheltenham respectively.

 

[edwin_m]

I understand the stops at Chepstow and Lydney were added without any deteriment to end to end journey times due to pathing being there being utilised for station stops instead. Stops are likely to be added soon for Worcester Parkway Station in these anyway

Whether the there is space in the timetable I don't know. However please note I wasn't just thinking of Barnt Green to Worcester /Cheltenham but to journeys between University and Barnt Green stations exclusive to west and south of Gloucester and Cheltenham respectively.

These people will be able to get Cross City to Bromsgrove and change for Worcester/Hereford - something that isn't possible now without going into Birmingham and out again. Not sure how the connections at Worcester would work out for Cheltenham and beyond though.

 

[ChrisHogan]

These people will be able to get Cross City to Bromsgrove and change for Worcester/Hereford - something that isn't possible now without going into Birmingham and out again. Not sure how the connections at Worcester would work out for Cheltenham and beyond though.

Not good. Generally 33 minutes wait at Foregate Street for the GWR service.

 

[D1009]

Not good. Generally 33 minutes wait at Foregate Street for the GWR service.

And virtually impossible on Sundays.

 

[moggie]

For what it's worth ex Worcester trains via Bromsgrove suffer extreme crowding problems much of the day.

Part solution: Remove the Bromsgrove stop from this service but insert a stop and Barnt Green instead.

This removes the temptation for Bromsgrove passengers to use the 1 / hour fast and make them use their new frequent electric service. Gives the ex Worcester trains a run at the Lickey (time saving?). Links Worcester with Redditch and vice versa (particularly beneficial to Worcester uni students / Worcester hospital users) with a single change of train. Passengers for Bromsgrove ex Worcester also should change at Barnt Green and double back. Passengers from Worcester for intermediate stations to / from Birmingham also change at Barnt Green into the local service.

As for stock shortages? How many 319's idle at Long Marston? If it's beyond the wit of the powers that be to create a rolling stock shortage problem out of a current surplus of AC rolling stock ex SE lying around waiting for a new use it's because they don't really want to pay for a solution. So why was the electrification urgently needed in 2016?

 

[Kite159]

Not a bad idea, anything to help the underpowered 170s climb Lickey the better

 

[ChrisHogan]

For what it's worth ex Worcester trains via Bromsgrove suffer extreme crowding problems much of the day.

Part solution: Remove the Bromsgrove stop from this service but insert a stop and Barnt Green instead.

This removes the temptation for Bromsgrove passengers to use the 1 / hour fast and make them use their new frequent electric service. Gives the ex Worcester trains a run at the Lickey (time saving?). Links Worcester with Redditch and vice versa (particularly beneficial to Worcester uni students / Worcester hospital users) with a single change of train. Passengers for Bromsgrove ex Worcester also should change at Barnt Green and double back. Passengers from Worcester for intermediate stations to / from Birmingham also change at Barnt Green into the local service.

The service pattern is now settled following an extensive consultation for the new WM franchise. The BNS-Hereford services are specified to call at Bromsgrove until the end of the new franchise.

 

[Mollman]

Regarding extra units, I thought some of Northerns extra 319s were going to replace a couple of 323s before the new EMUs arrived, releasing them to LM. I know there was issues regarding 319 capability on the Hadfield / Glossop route and their inferior acceleration on mainline workings but I don't recall it being cancelled.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

We might get a clearer picture when the new West Midlands franchise is announced in the summer. With Bromsgrove and Chase on the horizon more EMUs along with associated stabling and servicing will be needed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Masts have started appearing on the Lickey.
There are about 12 on each side on the incline, starting close to the work site near the top.
Bases seem pretty much complete now, with plenty appearing in the Bromsgrove station area.