InterCity 125s for parcels traffic

[DarloRich]

It's quite easy to hire in the occasional few lorries for planned works on the railway.

it isnt that simple.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Carrying dresses and tat from China nobody needs isn’t the same as carrying the mail, but as people have brought it up I’ll mention that the company that brought mail back onto the railway was GBRf, the same company that is proposing this. So I think the proposal should be taken fairly seriously.

 

[najaB]

it isnt that simple.

Given that works are planned months in advance, I doubt it would be that challenging.

 

[Chrisgr31]

i don't think it can - there inst the infrastructure or people to support it and customers now expect the parcel delivered to their door asap.

I am minded to disagre, or at least with the fact that people want a parcel delivered to their door ASAP.

The big issue people have with parcels is being out on delivery day, and many solve that busy having the, delivered to work. However our office can't be the only one that has banned personal parcel deliveries as the post room was full of them!

I think people want their parcel ASAP but are prepared to go to a convenient point to collect it. You will note Amazon lockers springing up all over the place, you can have goods from EBay delivered to Argos stores, Amazon deliver to certain petrol stations, corner shops etc.

Wouldn't it be remarkably convenient for a commuter to get back to their home station, and collect from a locker the parcel they ordered the previous day?

It would of course mean having station staff to put the parcels in the locker etc, but that could be good as more justification for them.

 

[DarloRich]

I am minded to disagre, or at least with the fact that people want a parcel delivered to their door ASAP.

The big issue people have with parcels is being out on delivery day, and many solve that busy having the, delivered to work. However our office can't be the only one that has banned personal parcel deliveries as the post room was full of them!

I think people want their parcel ASAP but are prepared to go to a convenient point to collect it. You will note Amazon lockers springing up all over the place, you can have goods from EBay delivered to Argos stores, Amazon deliver to certain petrol stations, corner shops etc.

Wouldn't it be remarkably convenient for a commuter to get back to their home station, and collect from a locker the parcel they ordered the previous day?

It would of course mean having station staff to put the parcels in the locker etc, but that could be good as more justification for them.

That is called Doddle or an Amazon locker.

I don't bother as i get same day delivery form Amazon to my home in the evening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't it be remarkably convenient for a commuter to get back to their home station, and collect from a locker the parcel they ordered the previous day?

It would of course mean having station staff to put the parcels in the locker etc, but that could be good as more justification for them.

Issues, potentially, with people removing parcels and inserting bombs?

Doddle, of course, was the first go at doing that with collection at the busier end of the journey. Problem is that along came Collect+ etc with far lower overheads, so Doddle will probably fail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't bother as i get same day delivery form Amazon to my home in the evening.

Only works if you're in in the evening. I have toyed with putting a lockable wooden box outside my front door, but obviously that only works with one parcel.

One thing that would be quite useful with Amazon would be them knowing product/box dimensions so you could ensure what you ordered fits your letterbox. A lot of things do, but you don't know until you miss delivery.

 

[HLE]

Is there 125mph electric stock going spare?

Class 91. Perfect.

EDIT: Beaten to it.

 

[Liam]

it isnt that simple.

Having worked for and with a number of these online shops/delivery companies, in my experience it actually is pretty easy.

Smaller hauliers know that if they get a foot in the door it can be a real moneyspinner for them. And the giants want reliable hauliers who are there to dig them out of the hole they invariably end up in. I had a few contacts who I knew could pull a driver and a unit out of a hat if needed even at the busiest time of year. Usually you would find that he had a favour due from (or had simply subcontracted) another firm so it wouldn't even have been one of his units that turned up.

 

[cjmillsnun]

it isnt that simple.

As someone who used to hire tractor units on a daily basis, it really is that simple. Especially for either RM or large parcels firms. Getting agency drivers in can be a little more tricky, but given the planned nature of most railway possessions, it can be sorted in good time.

 

[BestWestern]

As someone who used to hire tractor units on a daily basis, it really is that simple. Especially for either RM or large parcels firms. Getting agency drivers in can be a little more tricky, but given the planned nature of most railway possessions, it can be sorted in good time.

Surely all of that is missing the point, though. Would it not fall to the railway to organise suitable replacement when they cannot fulfil their contracted obligations?!

 

[MadCommuter]

Surely all of that is missing the point, though. Would it not fall to the railway to organise suitable replacement when they cannot fulfil their contracted obligations?!

A bus?

 

[BestWestern]

A bus?

A postbus?!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Shaw, very few planes can fly in to City, and the pilots need to be specially trained and approved. I think there is a cargo version of the BAE 146 (I think the QT(, but i'm not sure how many are hanging around spare in the day.

I was thinking more along the lines of the BAe ATP or Saab 2000. Plenty of freight conversions of these around flying almost exclusively on overnight freight work and little else. Both types are relatively easy to get in and out of London City.

Reliability of the infrastructure was a big issue in the contract moving to the roads/air. Railways could no longer guarantee to get the mail through by morning.

Overnight road closures have much less impact on mail services than overnight closures of key main lines. Think WC upgrade works

Very true. EWS may well have had contingencies for overnight possessions but, as anyone who has done so on passenger trains will know, lesser used diversionary routes can sometimes be very unreliable as far as timekeeping goes. Not to mention the delays caused by other trains, either late-runners or breakdowns, on the normal routes. Royal Mail had already started moving some post by air and a significant feature of the last EWS contract was connections at Derby station between trains and trucks running to/from East Midlands Airport. Failure to keep these connections was a particular bugbear.

 

[daikilo]

Surely all of that is missing the point, though. Would it not fall to the railway to organise suitable replacement when they cannot fulfil their contracted obligations?!

As in NR, no. TOCs organise road transport. What happens when the 325s cannot maintain mail operations? Note: I have no idea including who to ask.

 

[dubscottie]

A Mk 4 would be easier to convert to roller shutters.

I am sure BR/RES/EWS had 2 Mk 3 sleepers converted at the RTC.

Was not a success!

 

[BestWestern]

A Mk 4 would be easier to convert to roller shutters.

I am sure BR/RES/EWS had 2 Mk 3 sleepers converted at the RTC.

Was not a success!

That's a point; what were the Nightstar gen vans, weren't they MK3s?

 

[dubscottie]

That's a point; what were the Nightstar gen vans, weren't they MK3s?

Yes. I have never seen inside a UK gen van, but bet there were a few girders running the length of the body to spread the weight.

And it did not have holes cut in the side.


Cutting holes in Mk 3 stock is a no, no however.

There are many pics of the GNER Mk3 that had sideswipe damage.

Think it sat at Doncaster works for a long time.

It had steel welded in to stop it folding in two.

 

[43096]

A Mk 4 would be easier to convert to roller shutters.

I am sure BR/RES/EWS had 2 Mk 3 sleepers converted at the RTC.

Was not a success!

So you've seen the engineering studies that back that assertion up, have you?

 

[Clip]

Issues, potentially, with people removing parcels and inserting bombs?

.

Not like you to provide a little bit of hyperbole Neil - come on if anyone is going to bomb anything then there are many places on the railway to do so.

Doddle, of course, was the first go at doing that with collection at the busier end of the journey. Problem is that along came Collect+ etc with far lower overheads, so Doddle will probably fail

Doddle seems to be doing really well whenever I pass one and it really could expand if this got off the ground and I would imagine Network Rail(doddles owner/partner) are quite interested in this idea

 

[bastien]

Is there 125mph electric stock going spare?

MK3 DVTs? Or are they 110?

They'd be ideal otherwise, albeit a bit weird-llooking sandwiched between HST power cars.

 

[DarloRich]

Having worked for and with a number of these online shops/delivery companies, in my experience it actually is pretty easy.

Smaller hauliers know that if they get a foot in the door it can be a real moneyspinner for them. And the giants want reliable hauliers who are there to dig them out of the hole they invariably end up in. I had a few contacts who I knew could pull a driver and a unit out of a hat if needed even at the busiest time of year. Usually you would find that he had a favour due from (or had simply subcontracted) another firm so it wouldn't even have been one of his units that turned up.

As someone who used to hire tractor units on a daily basis, it really is that simple. Especially for either RM or large parcels firms. Getting agency drivers in can be a little more tricky, but given the planned nature of most railway possessions, it can be sorted in good time.

Hiring the vehicles and drivers isnt the problem. Who pays is. Getting the mail up the roads in the same timescale and same bulk as the train is, serving as many destinations ( quickly) as the train does is an issue, having the infrastructure to accept road over rail deliveries is an issue, driver hours are an issue on the roads but making sure the mail is in position for onward delivery ( and remember these were the days of posties delivering mail early and often twice) is very important.

Surely all of that is missing the point, though. Would it not fall to the railway to organise suitable replacement when they cannot fulfil their contracted obligations?!

Exactly - along with contractual penalties for failing meet delivery KPI

The simple fact is that RM lost confidence that rail could deliver when they needed them to.

 

[najaB]

Getting the mail up the roads in the same timescale and same bulk as the train is, serving as many destinations ( quickly) as the train does is an issue, having the infrastructure to accept road over rail deliveries is an issue, driver hours are an issue on the roads but making sure the mail is in position for onward delivery ( and remember these were the days of posties delivering mail early and often twice) is very important.

For planned works, none of that presents any significant challenge. If you know twelve weeks in advance that the line is going to be shut, you simply tell your customers twelve weeks in advance that either collections will be early or deliveries will be late on the days affected. They can work around changes like that given enough notice.

 

[BestWestern]

For planned works, none of that presents any significant challenge. If you know twelve weeks in advance that the line is going to be shut, you simply tell your customers twelve weeks in advance that either collections will be early or deliveries will be late on the days affected. They can work around changes like that given enough notice.

That would depend on their contract particulars, presumably? Depending on your business, early delivery may not be suitable. And late delivery is certainly no good if your timescales are critical.

 

[BestWestern]

Yes. I have never seen inside a UK gen van, but bet there were a few girders running the length of the body to spread the weight.

And it did not have holes cut in the side.


Cutting holes in Mk 3 stock is a no, no however.

There are many pics of the GNER Mk3 that had sideswipe damage.

Think it sat at Doncaster works for a long time.

It had steel welded in to stop it folding in two.

Indeed. Having had a Google it would appear that the genny vans were former sleepers, and it looks like they simply replaced the porthole windows with grilles. The generator units were inside some sort of 'acoustic' housing, apparently, so I imagine the thing was quite substantial inside, as you say.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes. I have never seen inside a UK gen van, but bet there were a few girders running the length of the body to spread the weight.

And it did not have holes cut in the side.


Cutting holes in Mk 3 stock is a no, no however.

There are many pics of the GNER Mk3 that had sideswipe damage.

Think it sat at Doncaster works for a long time.

It had steel welded in to stop it folding in two.

Indeed. Having had a Google it would appear that the genny vans were former sleepers, and it looks like they simply replaced the porthole windows with grilles. The generator units were inside some sort of 'acoustic' housing, apparently, so I imagine the thing was quite substantial inside, as you say.

I had a conversation many years ago with the designer of the generator cars, when something similar was being considered for a track recording coach for an overseas railway. He confirmed that it is very difficult to modify the structure, to the extent that the roof hatches are structural and must be bolted in place for it to meet relevant standards.

Another possibility might be the trailer cars that were taken out of the 321s that recently moved to Scotland. The 325 is basically the same bodyshell but with no windows and roller shutters on the door apertures.

 

[MarkyT]

What about redundant class 317s for this sort of work? The bodyshells already have large apertures for the sliding doors so could simply be be replaced by roller shutters, rather than having to create new large holes. Some could remain as EMUs while others could be split up to provide fixed sets of trailers to sandwich between power cars, with a driver trailer function using the ex EMU cabs for flexible operation of short or part trains with a single power car. Presumably existing bogies would not be suitable for 125MPH, but might be modifiable or exchanged for ex Mk3 ones?

 

[najaB]

That would depend on their contract particulars, presumably? Depending on your business, early delivery may not be suitable. And late delivery is certainly no good if your timescales are critical.

And if it's not suitable, you've got three months to find an alternative for those few days that are affected.

 

[Class 170101]

But what about the scheduled services on those lines (already at capacity)?
A

Diversions can usually be accommodated with some delays. When Ely Bridge disappeared in June 2007 the freight using this route wasn't just cancelled it was diverted via London.

When Fenchurch Street was closed for the Unexploded bomb found at Bromley By Bow in 2008 c2c still diverted to Liverpool Street in the peaks when the station is meant to be at full capacity.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

However loading is an issue. Roll cages pose issues, stillages pose issues but are fast to load f you suitable access and MHE. Un/loading loose loads from the side is labour intensive and a boom system will not work fr rail application they struggle with max length artics and 45 ft iso boxes