Merseytravel Liverpool Lime St Recommendations

[lejog]

Surely that would be a 2nd fast service? There's only one that takes half an hour.

More likely it's a semi-fast service (should we really be calling these semi-slows?).

There will be three fastish services between Liverpool and Manchester Victoria by 2019, 2 TPE and 1 Northern. Since the TPEs have to make two stops between them, and the Northern only one, journey times should be just over 30mins.

However I agree, I'd hesitate to describe any of the CLC services as fast.

I'm surprised no-ones asked how this extra Nottingham/Norwich service would cross Manchester - surely an additional movement across the throat at Piccadilly is a complete no-no?

 

[Nean]

I'm surprised no-ones asked how this extra Nottingham/Norwich service would cross Manchester - surely an additional movement across the throat at Piccadilly is a complete no-no?

Go through Victoria and reverse in the bay at Stalybridge?

 

[Penmorfa]

I'm surprised no-ones asked how this extra Nottingham/Norwich service would cross Manchester - surely an additional movement across the throat at Piccadilly is a complete no-no?

No reason to cross the throat at Piccadilly. The junction to access Sheffield/Nottingham/Norwich is at Stockport.

 

[northwichcat]

No reason to cross the throat at Piccadilly. The junction to access Sheffield/Nottingham/Norwich is at Stockport.

Yes but the paths which will be freed up by the North TPE changes will be needed for the Northern enhancements which will see an additional 2tph towards Hazel Grove (1 continuing at least as far as New Mills Newtown), an additional hourly service to Greenbank and an additional hourly service to Macclesfield.

An additional Manchester-Sheffield may require the path for Hazel Grove to be forfeited and for the additional Sheffield service to make a call at Hazel Grove.

 

[Statto]

Currently the fast NR service Liverpool-Manchester Airport over Chat Moss stops at Wavertree Technology Park-St Helens Junction & Newton Le Willows, when it's introduced would the extra TPE service via Chat Moss still call at these stations?

 

[Gareth]

There will be three fastish services between Liverpool and Manchester Victoria by 2019, 2 TPE and 1 Northern. Since the TPEs have to make two stops between them, and the Northern only one, journey times should be just over 30mins.

I would've thought there should be a hierarchy with Northern Connect being faster than normal Northern but TransPennine Express being faster again. If the TPEs need to make two stops then either they slow the existing non-stop one by adding one stop to that and one stop to the new service or they leave the existing as it is and have two stops on the new service; making it slower than the Northern Connect which will only have to stop once.

I do think it's helpful for different branded services to indicate whether the service is slow, semi-fast or fast. A couple of times over the years I've heard someone complain that the railway is not fit for purpose because they went to Manchester and jumped on an all-shacks pacer. May sound stupid to a rail buff but for muggles the train has 'Manchester' written on it and thus must surely be 'intercity'.

 

[Philip]

Would think there'll be one fast (non-stop) TPE, probably the Newcastle and then the Middlesbrough TPE will be the semi-fast; calling at St Helens and Newton.

The Northern Connect to the Airport and the EMT to Norwich will almost certainly both call at South Parkway and Warrington hourly and then one will probably do Wavertree and Widnes together and the other Birchwood and possibly Irlam together. Wouldn't be surprised if some peak trains call at Urmston too.

 

[notlob.divad]

The Northern Connect via Warrington can't possibly be just 1 stop. This will have to pick south parkway as a minimum. I would be surprised if it didn't also include Widnes and/or Birchwood.

The semi-fast TPE should pick up St.Helens Junction and Newton. I am not sure if every train currently stops at Wavetree or if it is just peak calls.

When it ever gets introduced, the Bradford Northern Connect service should stop at Huyton. But again I am not sure if it will pick up other calls as well.

 

[notlob.divad]

Another point that someone made about the CLC route which hasn't been mentioned is the conflicts that are done at South Parkway area. It needs to have one box overseeing all of it to become more efficient. Not the 3 boxes that are currently overseeing it.

Isn't this happening as part of the resignalling. I thought it was going to this all singing all dancing ROC.

 

[lejog]

I would've thought there should be a hierarchy with Northern Connect being faster than normal Northern but TransPennine Express being faster again. If the TPEs need to make two stops then either they slow the existing non-stop one by adding one stop to that and one stop to the new service or they leave the existing as it is and have two stops on the new service; making it slower than the Northern Connect which will only have to stop once.

I do think it's helpful for different branded services to indicate whether the service is slow, semi-fast or fast. A couple of times over the years I've heard someone complain that the railway is not fit for purpose because they went to Manchester and jumped on an all-shacks pacer. May sound stupid to a rail buff but for muggles the train has 'Manchester' written on it and thus must surely be 'intercity'.

The privatised railway is supposed to encourage competition. The DfT specified the 2 TPE services and their stops in the ITT. Arriva then offered to run the Northern Connect Chat Moss service which hadn't been specifically asked for.

Assuming that some of the Northern services are 6 car (and some Calder Valley stations are going to have platforms lengthened to allow 6*23m trains), the only intermediate station with long enough platforms for a 6*23m train is Huyton - the Northern service could not serve the TPE stops without extra platform lengthening.

 

[urbophile]

one will probably do Wavertree and Widnes together

They are on different lines!

 

[Philip]

They are on different lines!

My mistake, I'm getting mixed up with Edge Hill. Well it seems like Wavertree will probably just be served by the local stoppers from Manchester and Warrington, possibly some peak time extras added from the Northern Connect Bradford.

Is there a case for a half hourly non-stop Liverpool-Manchester service? Given everything about Rail North and connecting the cities I'd have thought two fast trains per hour between Liverpool and Manchester would be necessary? Adding calls at Newton and St Helens to an express service isn't what Liverpool, Leeds and Manchester commuters want.

 

[fowler9]

My mistake, I'm getting mixed up with Edge Hill. Well it seems like Wavertree will probably just be served by the local stoppers from Manchester and Warrington, possibly some peak time extras added from the Northern Connect Bradford.

Is there a case for a half hourly non-stop Liverpool-Manchester service? Given everything about Rail North and connecting the cities I'd have thought two fast trains per hour between Liverpool and Manchester would be necessary? Adding calls at Newton and St Helens to an express service isn't what Liverpool, Leeds and Manchester commuters want.

I don't think there is a case for a half hourly none stop Liverpool to Manchester service. Shed loads of people get off the fast CLC Manchester to Liverpool service in the peak at Parkway, I would imagine a large number also get off at Warrington which is the biggest town in Cheshire.

 

[notlob.divad]

Is there a case for a half hourly non-stop Liverpool-Manchester service? Given everything about Rail North and connecting the cities I'd have thought two fast trains per hour between Liverpool and Manchester would be necessary? Adding calls at Newton and St Helens to an express service isn't what Liverpool, Leeds and Manchester commuters want.

Agree with Fowler9
Any integration of services across the North needs to include the middle sized towns as well as the cities. Whilst multiple trains per hour between the cities may be desired, it cannot be at the expense of decent connections to other population centres.
St Helens MBC has 176,843 people, and the railways desicion has always been for Junction to be the main station on the 1830 line.
Newton will become an interchange station with Northern TPE and ATW all stopping there. Providing same platform interchanges without having to traverse the new chord.

 

[Camden]

I don't think there is a case for a half hourly none stop Liverpool to Manchester service. Shed loads of people get off the fast CLC Manchester to Liverpool service in the peak at Parkway, I would imagine a large number also get off at Warrington which is the biggest town in Cheshire.

Having used the express services between Manchester and Liverpool they are definitely very well used.

I have also (while waiting at the station, not spotting) seen at Liverpool Lime Street the 3 carriage express and the 6 carriage Warrington Central train pull up and spill out very large amounts of people, as well as seen the number of people who get on and off at Warrington as it's gone through, so it's not an either or.

I think that the emerging approach is the right one balancing connections and speed. One stop in the middle is no hardship, but fifteen would be. If done right a combination of limited stop express services and parallel stoppers could provide faster journeys all round.

In terms of that stop in the middle though, Northern and Transpennine may find that extra capacity used up very quickly when it comes into force. AFAIK there isn't that much extra being added to the Liverpool Manchester corridor.

 

[urbophile]

I don't think there is a case for a half hourly none stop Liverpool to Manchester service. Shed loads of people get off the fast CLC Manchester to Liverpool service in the peak at Parkway, I would imagine a large number also get off at Warrington which is the biggest town in Cheshire.

Not on the CLC route, no. But with the proliferation of diesel services on the newly-electrified Chat Moss line, you'd think there would be an advantage in a fast electric service. St Helens Junction is the only obvious stop, and I doubt if that is as well used as Warrington.

 

[lejog]

Not on the CLC route, no. But with the proliferation of diesel services on the newly-electrified Chat Moss line, you'd think there would be an advantage in a fast electric service. St Helens Junction is the only obvious stop, and I doubt if that is as well used as Warrington.

As I've alluded to above, in the ITTs for the new franchises the second TPE service replaced the current Northern Chat Moss semi-fast service. Wavertree lost its faster service, while the St Helens Junction and Newton-le-Willows stops switched to TPE. The Northern Connect service Arriva proposed was in addition to the two stoppers that their ITT requested. Whether Northern would have offered an additional service if it didn't compete with TPE on journey time is a matter of conjecture, but less likely.

If in the first place the DfT/Rail North had specified that the second TPE service should be in addition to the current services, the TPE/Northern Connect calling patterns would be different. But they didn't.

What are the advantages of a fast electric service? Certainly I would have thought the journey time will be largely constrained by the 90mph line speed, not the traction type.

 

[urbophile]

What are the advantages of a fast electric service? Certainly I would have thought the journey time will be largely constrained by the 90mph line speed, not the traction type.

What's the point of spending billions electrifying the line if half the trains are going to be noisy smelly diesels?

 

[KevinTurvey]

Good to see the both the direct Cardiff and Calder Valley trains making a comeback after a 20 year gap.

However, whilst a nice to have, I cant see the Holyhead service being viable, I would have thought Llandudno more appropriate?

Also what is the plan with the Chat Moss stoppers - still the hourly service but now going to the Airport - there was talk a while back of the XX:47 Liverpool to Bank Quay being diverted to Victoria? This train always seems quite empty after Earlestown.

I think extending this to Crewe instead might be more useful, Winsford and Hartford seem busy these days and a direct service between Warrington and St Helens J, Huyton and these other stations would surely be well used?

 

[notlob.divad]

Good to see the both the direct Cardiff and Calder Valley trains making a comeback after a 20 year gap.

However, whilst a nice to have, I cant see the Holyhead service being viable, I would have thought Llandudno more appropriate?

Also what is the plan with the Chat Moss stoppers - still the hourly service but now going to the Airport - there was talk a while back of the XX:47 Liverpool to Bank Quay being diverted to Victoria? This train always seems quite empty after Earlestown.

I think extending this to Crewe instead might be more useful, Winsford and Hartford seem busy these days and a direct service between Warrington and St Helens J, Huyton and these other stations would surely be well used?

I tend to agree with your assessment re: Holyhead. Llandudno would be to me a better fit. The counter argument being would it be useful to link Liverpool with the ferry due to the histori. Irish connections to the city. Quite possibly. But I remain to be convinced either way.

I thought the stopping trains will be as you described, but it is the first time I have heard of potentially breaking the link to Warrington BQ. The only time I think that may have been considered is when considering a path for a 2nd Liverpool WCML service running via Warrington.

I like your thinking extending to Crewe, but am dubious of the availability of paths. Would an alternative be via Northwich and middlewich?

 

[fowler9]

The Liverpool to Bank Quay service has puzzled me for a while. When I have used it few people actually seem to use it from Bank Quay. It is like the Parkway to Preston service, it goes to Bank Quay because it can and it is convenient.

 

[507021]

The Liverpool to Bank Quay service has puzzled me for a while. When I have used it few people actually seem to use it from Bank Quay. It is like the Parkway to Preston service, it goes to Bank Quay because it can and it is convenient.

I've used the Liverpool South Parkway to Liverpool Lime Street service a couple of times recently, and both times there were no more than three passengers on the train. On one occasion there were only three people on board, me, the guard and the driver!

It is a useful service, though.

 

[fowler9]

I've used the Liverpool South Parkway to Liverpool Lime Street service a couple of times recently, and both times there were no more than three passengers on the train. On one occasion there were only three people on board, me, the guard and the driver!

It is a useful service, though.

I use the Parkway to Preston service all the time, if I'm not in a rush when I am heading to town I will go from West Allerton to Parkway and catch that to town just to have a private service to Lime Street.

 

[Gareth]

I use the Parkway to Preston service all the time, if I'm not in a rush when I am heading to town I will go from West Allerton to Parkway and catch that to town just to have a private service to Lime Street.

I've always thought that service was mainly about connecting Warrington to the St Helens area. I'm surprised it's as quiet as you say it is.

 

[fowler9]

I've always thought that service was mainly about connecting Warrington to the St Helens area. I'm surprised it's as quiet as you say it is.

I think it is the Parkway to Lime Street service that was being referred to. I use it all the time because I am the only person on the train normally. The train from Lime Street to Bank Quay does strike me as odd though as it connects one of the poorest parts of the country to a station on the edge of Warrington town centre. The big areas it goes through are in Knowsley which doesn't have a single school where you can take A Levels, a pretty shameful claim to fame.

 

[Bevan Price]

I've always thought that service was mainly about connecting Warrington to the St Helens area. I'm surprised it's as quiet as you say it is.

Yes - that was at least partly the idea. But there are some snags.

1. St. Helens Junction is nearly 2 miles from the town centre. (And on weekdays, the car park can be full & overflowing by 08:00)

2. Thanks to Marples/Beeching, the rail service from the town centre was withdrawn.

3. Warrington Bank Quay is about 10 minutes walk from most of the town centre.

In consequence, the service cannot compete with a half-hourly bus service between St. Helens & Warrington town centres that takes (in theory) about 37 minutes - rather quicker than using the train.

The snag with the new services via Chat Moss is that St. Helens Junction will lose seating capacity, at least until Trans Pennine electrification is fully complete. Instead of 2 x 319 per hour, there will be 1 x 319 and 1 x 185 -- a loss of about 140 standard class seats per hour - and a very retrogade step in my opinion.

.

 

[notlob.divad]

Yes - that was at least partly the idea. But there are some snags.

1. St. Helens Junction is nearly 2 miles from the town centre. (And on weekdays, the car park can be full & overflowing by 08:00)

2. Thanks to Marples/Beeching, the rail service from the town centre was withdrawn.

3. Warrington Bank Quay is about 10 minutes walk from most of the town centre.

In consequence, the service cannot compete with a half-hourly bus service between St. Helens & Warrington town centres that takes (in theory) about 37 minutes - rather quicker than using the train.
.

I would agree with all of the above. By the time the majority have driven/ taken the bus from St Helens to a station where they can catch the train to Warrington, they may as well stay on the bus/ keep driving all the way to Warrington. Reopening the link from the town centre would change this massively, as well as providing a potential town centre link to Manchester and Chester, which could transform the town. I am disappointed but not unsurprised that reopening this is not included in any Northern Powerhouse plans.

As for the Lime Street to Parkway extension, I have used it to get too and from the airport and it is painfully slow. It gives people from Wigan, St Helens anxd Huyton a direct train to the 'airport' station but until the reverse in and out of Lime Street and the slow lines from Wavetree are made more efficient, the bus that goes around the houses works out quicker.

The snag with the new services via Chat Moss is that St. Helens Junction will lose seating capacity, at least until Trans Pennine electrification is fully complete. Instead of 2 x 319 per hour, there will be 1 x 319 and 1 x 185 -- a loss of about 140 standard class seats per hour - and a very retrogade step in my opinion.
.

I am not sure this is true. TPE are getting Loco Hauled Carriages and Bi-modes to run on the chat Moss route. There may be a single 185 for a short period, but I think double up units or Loco stick will become the norm

 

[gray1404]

Such a shame that a Liverpool to Edinburgh service isn't included on there.

 

[ivanhoe]

The point is that if the WCML was closed again at any point shut there would be another pathway to london on the MML. With the possibility in future the Class 222 would move to that route or Norwich Liverpool route

Calling it East Midlands Airport is deceitful though. You would be better getting off in Derby and catch the Skylink directly outside. By all means keep the path for a Liverpool East Midlands Service to either Derby or if possible, Loughborough and Leicester. East Midlands Airport is predominately served by the car, in respect of air passengers.The successful Skylink Services feed the many service jobs that exist both within and by the airport.

 

[me123]

Good to see the both the direct Cardiff and Calder Valley trains making a comeback after a 20 year gap.

However, whilst a nice to have, I cant see the Holyhead service being viable, I would have thought Llandudno more appropriate?

I think there could well be a market for North Wales to Liverpool. Certainly North East Wales has got ties to the Merseyside region (with Liverpool being our nearest major city), so I think that there would be a market for a direct service; I'm going to go ahead even suggest an hourly service would be viable. Yes, you can change at Chester onto Merseyrail, but it's slow and the connections aren't always great.

Although, I'm just looking at NE Wales here - going past Llandudno may well reduce your benefits.