Caledonian Sleeper discussion

[TimboM]

Inverness portion was cancelled at Edinburgh after arriving not far off 5 hours late. Looks like Aberdeen/Fort Bill portions went to Euston (on time) as 1Z16 instead.

Presumably this is the ECS move to get the Inverness portion to Wembley http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O69825/2017/02/02/advanced

 

[marks87]

So they'll need to put two 67s on the Inverness section every night again just in case!

It seems strange that given the 67s have had their problems in the past, especially up/down the HML, they didn't have the usual 66 in there, with the 67 merely acting as the glorified ETHEL.

Or was the use of the 67 precisely because a 66 wasn't available and they didn't trust a 73?

Presumably this means an ECS move at some point today to get the Inverness portion to Wembley?

Presumably this is it: 5M16 0633 Edinburgh-Wembley.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O69825/2017/02/02/advanced

EDIT: posted as you were editing!

 

[92002]

I was about to say, I've seen the sleepers bad recently, but last night's timings were unforgivable...

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C74102/2017/02/01/advanced

Took 5 1/2 hours to get from Kingussie to Dalwhinnie.

Perhaps something to do with 67010 failing and the rescue 67003 coming from Mossend.

Cancelled at Edinburgh passengers on daytime trains and ECS to Wembley.

Whoever wanted 67s back on the Sleeper needs to go back into hiding now.

 

[43096]

It seems strange that given the 67s have had their problems in the past, especially up/down the HML, they didn't have the usual 66 in there, with the 67 merely acting as the glorified ETHEL.

Or was the use of the 67 precisely because a 66 wasn't available and they didn't trust a 73?

How many locos do you want on the train?

A more general point for people: mechanical things fail sometimes, including locos. Get over it!

 

[BestWestern]

How many locos do you want on the train?

A more general point for people: mechanical things fail sometimes, including locos. Get over it!

Yes but if you're trying to run a sleeper service and you semi-regularly end up turfing people out of bed because your chosen loco class is, frankly, slightly hopeless, action is required! (Yes, the above statement applies equally to the Cornish effort as well I know!)

 

[47271]

How many locos do you want on the train?

A more general point for people: mechanical things fail sometimes, including locos. Get over it!

It's far from unprecedented though to have such an arrangement.

What's more over the top, 66+67 or 67x2? [emoji38]

 

[marks87]

How many locos do you want on the train?

A more general point for people: mechanical things fail sometimes, including locos. Get over it!

Blimey, someone got out of bed on the wrong side.

Recent CS operations have been for a 66 to haul and a 73 (or, occasionally, 47) to provide ETH.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that even when a 67 is being used vice a 73, the 66 would have also been retained.

 

[najaB]

A more general point for people: mechanical things fail sometimes, including locos. Get over it!

Indeed they do. However, given the small number of services that CS operate they have a disturbingly high number of failures - both as a percentage and as an absolute number.

 

[MadCommuter]

Worth remembering that CS run 10 services a night, so for one to fail results in 90% running. The issue is the lack of alternative services during the night, although by the time the failures are on the move and arrive at a major station, the first daytime services are operating

 

[najaB]

Worth remembering that CS run 10 services a night, so for one to fail results in 90% running.

That's why I said the absolute number of failures is disturbing. CS has had a comparable number of traction failures to TOCs that operate several times more services. Just in the last few days we've had the northbound Aberdeen train failed at Kirkcaldy and the southbound Inverness train failed between Kingussie and Dalwhinnie.

 

[trainophile]

Do they really make people wake up in the middle of the night if there's a problem? Where are they supposed to go?

 

[BestWestern]

Do they really make people wake up in the middle of the night if there's a problem? Where are they supposed to go?

I believe the usual process is to detrain passengers onto alternative services, presumably allowing them to use the Sleeper stock until the other trains are actually available for them to board.

 

[trainophile]

I believe the usual process is to detrain passengers onto alternative services, presumably allowing them to use the Sleeper stock until the other trains are actually available for them to board.

Thanks. Could be worse then. I'm picturing 200 sleepy folk in pyjamas freezing on some isolated, facility-lacking platform in the middle of nowhere!

 

[Crossover]

Those ex Virgin Mk 2's were around when I went to Oban last February, so they clearly aren't very short term!

 

[Crossover]

Thank you. So W is presumably the furthest from the Lounge etc? No worries, I probably won't want to spend time in it anyway.

Thank you . I guess you have to be careful to be in the right place at Edinburgh, or you could end up at the wrong destination? I'm assuming the train divides - sorry I'm not at all au fait with the operational set-up.

I have pre-ordered the smoked salmon & scrambled eggs for breakfast both ways. I didn't pre-book dinner, as I will have a few hours to kill in Euston before boarding so planned to get something substantial there.

One little question that has occurred to me... is it acceptable to pad down the corridor to the loo in (respectable) nightwear and slippers if nature calls during the night, or are people expected to put day clothes on? I don't suppose robes are supplied?

Just checked and when a few of us went to Oban, we were in Coach F which I think formed the back of the set and the lounge was reachable via the Aberdeen berths - coach W if the very front will only be one further coach away IIRC. The back of the portion becomes the front at Edinburgh so this being the case, I got awoken to the sound of the 73 through Princes Street tunnels as we were only about 10m away from it!

As has been mentioned, nightwear is fine and certainly I saw a handful of people wandering around similarly. The corridor is very much Single Line Working though!

Hope you enjoy the trip - I have done the Glasgow Lowland and Oban Highland now and enjoyed them (Cornish Riviera too) and also travelled from Fort William to Glasgow in seated twice - the views are amazing and I would definitely suggest to enjoy such whilst the stock with droplights is still running

 

[Blindtraveler]

Those ex Virgin Mk 2's were around when I went to Oban last February, so they clearly aren't very short term!

And also in May on that glorious Sunday when yourself, I plus Starmill and Yorkie rode them down from FTW with that amazingly enthusiastic driver! Still one of my favourite outings of 2016 that.

 

[TimboM]

Thanks. Could be worse then. I'm picturing 200 sleepy folk in pyjamas freezing on some isolated, facility-lacking platform in the middle of nowhere!

This particular one was running that late it arrived into Edinburgh just after 6am, so was almost time to wake up anyway!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Those ex Virgin Mk 2's were around when I went to Oban last February, so they clearly aren't very short term!

Here they are on the Sunday ECS working to Oban in Feb last year:


73968 leads ECS sleeper train to Oban by Timothy Young, on Flickr

 

[TimboM]

I believe the usual process is to detrain passengers onto alternative services, presumably allowing them to use the Sleeper stock until the other trains are actually available for them to board.

The service last night finally made it into Edinburgh at 0602. The ECS then left at 0635 direct to Wembley depot (arriving 12:50). So, just enough time really to wake-up the passengers, give them the good news, clear the train - and then the train they'd just been on went on it's way to London.

The detrained folk would presumably have then got the 0626 to London KX (arr. 1050), or if they weren't awake/quick enough for that, the 0655 to KX (arr. 1140).

Now I know there are all sorts of staff considerations, getting space in Euston (although it would've been off-peak when it arrived) and giving it enough time in the depot for preparing it for tonight, but I'd have thought a good proportion of the passengers - if offered the choice - would've happily stayed on (and gone back to sleep!) and arrived at Euston c.1pm?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Now I know there are all sorts of staff considerations, getting space in Euston (although it would've been off-peak when it arrived) and giving it enough time in the depot for preparing it for tonight, but I'd have thought a good proportion of the passengers - if offered the choice - would've happily stayed on (and gone back to sleep!) and arrived at Euston c.1pm?

An easier way would surely be to set them down at Watford? The train would presumably have been on the slow lines anyway and with everyone ready it wouldn't take very long to detrain them.

 

[najaB]

Now I know there are all sorts of staff considerations...

Those would be primary - from a safety point of view, having staff working 14 hours into a shift is probably not a good idea.

 

[TimboM]

Worth remembering that CS run 10 services a night, so for one to fail results in 90% running. The issue is the lack of alternative services during the night, although by the time the failures are on the move and arrive at a major station, the first daytime services are operating

Also worth bearing in mind that for the 10 services there's potentially 15* locos involved - and only one needs to go wrong to have knock-on impacts on other parts of the 'chain'.

It's also a service running c.550 miles end-to-end including some very remote areas and in the middle of the night - so if something does go wrong, fitters/rescue locos (as with last night) could be a long way away - and so delays/impacts are magnified. Oh and it's high profile so people talk at length about every blip that happens on forums like this...

*[Southbound Highlander has up to 6 locos on the North of Edinburgh sections if all double-headed. Assuming these same ones all do the Northbound services, there's also the 2 electric locos that do the main runs to/from Euston = MAX 8.

Lowlander has 2 locos doing the main runs North and South, plus a third on the Edinburgh portion, plus 1 further loco hauling the ECS into Glasgow and 1 or 2 locos doing the ECS moves from Wembley to Euston = MAX 7]

 

[TimboM]

Those would be primary - from a safety point of view, having staff working 14 hours into a shift is probably not a good idea.

Fair shout - probably illegal too!

Not sure where the crew change normally is, but presumably there were some misplaced staff too. Would they have stayed on the ECS down to Wembley (or Crewe or wherever) or would red tape prevent this and they have to get a normal service down? (if indeed the planners didn't just rejig things around)

 

[najaB]

Would they have stayed on the ECS down to Wembley (or Crewe or wherever) or would red tape prevent this and they have to get a normal service down?

Assuming they could find a qualified guard, no reason why they couldn't have travelled down as passengers. If not, then it would be a normal service train.

 

[cambsy]

Thursday nights 1M16 20.44 Inverness-Euston, arrived 5 mins early behind 90044 and had 67013 Inverness-Edinburgh, had good nights sleep.

 

[Scotrail84]

The service last night finally made it into Edinburgh at 0602. The ECS then left at 0635 direct to Wembley depot (arriving 12:50). So, just enough time really to wake-up the passengers, give them the good news, clear the train - and then the train they'd just been on went on it's way to London.

The detrained folk would presumably have then got the 0626 to London KX (arr. 1050), or if they weren't awake/quick enough for that, the 0655 to KX (arr. 1140).

Now I know there are all sorts of staff considerations, getting space in Euston (although it would've been off-peak when it arrived) and giving it enough time in the depot for preparing it for tonight, but I'd have thought a good proportion of the passengers - if offered the choice - would've happily stayed on (and gone back to sleep!) and arrived at Euston c.1pm?

What about the crew? When do they get to go home if that happened? Thats a 16hr+ shift with some doubling out that night.

 

[Scotrail84]

Assuming they could find a qualified guard, no reason why they couldn't have travelled down as passengers. If not, then it would be a normal service train.

Not a chance, all current sleeper guards a permanent nights.

 

[Scotrail84]

An easier way would surely be to set them down at Watford? The train would presumably have been on the slow lines anyway and with everyone ready it wouldn't take very long to detrain them.

Again, what about the on board crew? How long are they expected to work?

 

[47271]

It wouldn't surprise me if they'd problems crewing the northbound services last night (I mean night of 2 February) as a result of the repercussions of a reasonable number of London based staff getting tipped out of the southbound Highlander at Waverley at 6am.

Forget any ideas that they can just work on until Euston at lunchtime having been ready for duty around 7pm the night before.

 

[najaB]

Not a chance, all current sleeper guards a permanent nights.

I thought that might be the case. Though I was thinking someone might be convinced to come in on their rest day if the OT premium was attractive enough.