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National Express Group to give up franchises??

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Metroland

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Yes I think Bob Crow might have something to say when train drivers get the bill for their £70k training costs and staff uniforms, all the ticket offices and walk on fares are closed/cancelled and union activities restricted. Nor do I think the DfT will let them get rid of off peak services and close any station serving a town of less than 300,000 with more basic facilities or away from centres, and they start charging for baggage and other things. (Some of this may be the other lot just in case the lawyers are reading.)
 
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Flyboy

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Spot on Metroland, you know exactly where I'm coming from!

For example, reflecting on your point about training costs, if a pilot doesn't have a rating on one of EasyJet's aircraft types then you are recruited via the TRSS (Type Rated Sponsorship Scheme) method, whereby you're required to enter into the following bond agreement :

"We will require a bond of £23,000 (representing a proportion of the total training costs we will incur), which must be made available to our training provider at the beginning of the training course. This bond will be transferred to easyJet when we employ you on completion of the training - normally about 2 months after your training start date. On employment, we will return this bond to you, in monthly installments over 5 years."

In rail terms this means if you're passed out on HSTs but our theoretical 'EasyRail' Company operates Pendolinos, you'll need to cough up the Pendo training costs when you start!

Cash up front thank you very much! and I have to say that that is by no means the worst of what's going on at the moment, there are some airlines in which you pay them whilst working for them. They advertise this as "paying for experience" and "enhancing future career potential".

Slight thread drift I know, but suffice it to say, keep the low-cost airlines right away from rail!!
 

Pumbaa

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Just finishing up Flyboys post - don't Ryanair have to pay to wear their uniform? I'm sure I read or saw it somewhere.
 

A0

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I would love that to be the case. I know nationalisation is considered taboo - but it makes a lot more sense economically and logistically than the current system we have!

Absolute rubbish.

Nationalisation will solve absolutely nothing.

The only people who really want re-nationalisation of the railways are the trade unions, and that's because they believe it will strengthen their ability to extract excessive pay increases. Since privatisation the unions have been unable to bring the rail network to a halt as part of pay negotiations, which was a common occurance throughout the 70s and 80s.

And don't begin to think that nationalisation would lead to new trains, new services, better connections, cheaper fares or better connections.

The removal of competition would see many of the cheaper fares disappear. The services being pioneered by the Open Access operators would almost certainly disappear.


More route miles were closed when the railways were under government control (aka nationalisation) than ever under private control.

Since privatisation there has been a huge growth in both passenger and freight being carried on the railways, due in part to the competitive approach the various companies involved have taken.

To see it passed back to government control doesn't bear thinking about.
 

Flyboy

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Just finishing up Flyboys post - don't Ryanair have to pay to wear their uniform? I'm sure I read or saw it somewhere.

Yes, they have buy their owns uniforms believe it or not.

It starts right back at the application stage where you pay £50 to submit a CV/application, then the price just keeps on rising at every step throughout the selection: interview, sim check etc etc. One might ask why the heck people are prepared to do this, and their answer would be that in relation to the £60k plus they've just spent obtaining the licence, another few hundred quid is small change. Sad, but true. <(

As I said above, thankfully they're never likely to come anywhere near the railways due to existing regulation and strong unions.
 

me123

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Ryanrail would be quite interesting in my opinion:

Jr_t204standing.jpg

"Welcome on board the 1200 Highland Chieftain to Inverness..."
 

WillPS

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Absolute rubbish.

Nationalisation will solve absolutely nothing.

The only people who really want re-nationalisation of the railways are the trade unions, and that's because they believe it will strengthen their ability to extract excessive pay increases. Since privatisation the unions have been unable to bring the rail network to a halt as part of pay negotiations, which was a common occurance throughout the 70s and 80s.

And don't begin to think that nationalisation would lead to new trains, new services, better connections, cheaper fares or better connections.
Your argument is based on history, whilst mine is based on theory. I know this country holds a rather dim view on nationalisation (as I said in the post you quoted), but theoretically in the situation of the railways it would lead to more money available to put to the passengers need, if of course the amount of investment remained level post-nationalisation.

The railways do not (overall) make money. In a free-market economy situation, they would just die (or at least all the unprofitable lines would). To prevent this, they must receive support from the government. At present, the government provides subsidies to a handful of companies to keep these services profitable. A simple bit of business mechanics would suggest that a percentage of this money will never see its way past shareholders pockets - they're profitable concerns!

Remove said shareholders, and suddenly you'll find a large amount of cash available - ready to spend on newer trains, staff development, lower ticket prices - whatever!

The historical aspect to your arguement suggests that without the desire for profitability the business would stagnate - creating all the problems BR was plagued with. The simple solution for this is better management and continued investment.

The logistical gains of a single national operator are also immense. Stock shortages in one area would be leveled out by stock surplus' in another - you may laugh but this happened under BR pretty much throughout the deployment of the Sprinters. All this without the need for a superficial government department needing to decide which area gets what.

The removal of competition would see many of the cheaper fares disappear. The services being pioneered by the Open Access operators would almost certainly disappear.
It helps if you actually read the post I was originally quoting:
the whole lot will get nationalised, with open access as on the continent

More route miles were closed when the railways were under government control (aka nationalisation) than ever under private control.
I am not for one moment saying that history should repeat itself - the Beeching cuts were a mistake, I think this is clear to see!

You should be under no illusion that lines are still being closed though - just look at what's happening now with the ghost bus services in lieu of the CrossCountry connections to Brighton - it's a farce!

Since privatisation there has been a huge growth in both passenger and freight being carried on the railways, due in part to the competitive approach the various companies involved have taken.

To see it passed back to government control doesn't bear thinking about.
British Rail, as I've previous said, suffered from terrible stagnation and underinvestment. Privatisation wasn't what was needed, investment was. I'd argue that what rescued the rail wasn't corporate culture - but money. Put tangably - £1-2bn at most including inflation to date was what BR took in subsidies from the government. Nowadays, the government pours somewhere around £6bn into the railways.

A closing thought: Thatcher, advocate of privatising perceivably everything, herself said that privatising the railways was "a privatisation too far"!
 

Failed Unit

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Absolute rubbish.

Nationalisation will solve absolutely nothing.

The only people who really want re-nationalisation of the railways are the trade unions, and that's because they believe it will strengthen their ability to extract excessive pay increases. Since privatisation the unions have been unable to bring the rail network to a halt as part of pay negotiations, which was a common occurance throughout the 70s and 80s.

Me among others! :lol: These are basic figures to give the idea but what do the private companies offer in terms of value.

Northern Railways.
Subisidy £1M
Profit to franchise holder £500k,

Doesn't it follow on logically that if Northern Railways was privatised then we would be 500k better off as we could reduce the subsidy by the amount of profit Northern Railways are making.

Same with the profitable operators.
GNER,
Premium £1M
Profit to GNER 500k
again if the franchise was in private hands then that would be another 500k we would have, in effect a 1.5M premium!

The private operators don't take any risks, maybe because the franchise is too short but that is a different debate. Maybe because DaFT micromanage them. The only things that they do spend thier from their own cash is the constant reliverying of trains. Not something that is needed.

And don't begin to think that nationalisation would lead to new trains, new services, better connections, cheaper fares or better connections.
These things have all got worse under privatisation. Connections hmm under BR these were held. I never needed to worry when travelling from London KX if my connection to Market Rasen would still be at Newark NorthGate, BR always held it it was called customer service. It is never held now as PPM is more important than the passenger. I used to be able to travel direct from Market Rasen - Birmingham under BR I can't any more, it now needs two changes which 1/2 hour wait on each. Did the people of Lincoln really want to lose thier hourly direct service to Birmingham? Are connections better on XC now journeys are split. BR used to plan timetable nationally, mainlines first and then branchlines with gaurenteed connections to the mainline. The private operators are only bothered about thier own patch and don't think that people want to travel in the whole of the UK. Central couldn't even get thier own services to connect together. How many times to we see 6 minutes between trains at a 7 minute interchange stations.

Now lets get started about fares. This has been the biggest failure of privatisation as these have rocketed.

Look at the increase of open returns between say London and York, or London and Manchester massive increase compared to inflation.
Savers? Restrictions increase drastically forcing many people to use Open returns. Again you used to be able to travel to Birmingham on any route with a Saver not any more!
Season tickets, regulated but massive increases 6% on average this year.
Day returns? More restrictions on CDR forcing people to buy SDR.

Try telling any First Capital connect that fares are cheaper now the railway is privatised.

The one thing privatisation has done is put up fares for tha majority of passengers, remember only a small portion of journeys are made on AP's .

The removal of competition would see many of the cheaper fares disappear. The services being pioneered by the Open Access operators would almost certainly disappear.
What competition? most areas have none. I want to travel to Nottingham I have one choice. Even London - Newcastle, fly or ECML! Leeds - Manchester only really one choice unless you have lots of time on your hands.

Open access is an EU principle. If the network was still nationalised then open access operators must be able to access the network, just as the model is in France. In fact they would be more likely to gain access then now as a nationalised operator would find it a lot more difficult to block Grand Central!

More route miles were closed when the railways were under government control (aka nationalisation) than ever under private control.
Not many routes closed in the 70's or 80's either. How many routes in England have opened since privatisation? Nottingham - Worksop was developed by BR would it have happened now - I doubt it! How many new stations per year? Again this number is a lot lower than BR's

Since privatisation there has been a huge growth in both passenger and freight being carried on the railways, due in part to the competitive approach the various companies involved have taken.

To see it passed back to government control doesn't bear thinking about.

Absolute rubbish, the growth in passenger numbers is purely down to the economic boom. The same type of growth was withness in the 1980's. The 1990's recession saw routes lose passengers, the same will happen in the current recession. Freight is the same in boom / bust. BR innovated new services, Chester / Aberwstwth - Nottingham, Hereford - Nottingham, Norwich - Liverpool, Lincoln - Birmingham, Skegness - Crewe, Cleethorpes - Manchester all were developed by BR, what new through routes have developed since privatisation. Well we have lost 2 of the routes mentioned above and XC has been butchered to the detroment of the passenger.

Also don't forget the government is already in control, but we are wasting a lot of money providing profits to the likes of National Express, First group etc.
 

me123

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I'm sorry, but nationalisation is not the way to go. Not at the moment, anyway. We currently have hospitals, education, prisons, defence and so on to fund, and it's already a tight budget. The recession only makes things worse. The railways, although they would pay for themselves to an extent, would require to government to spend more money on improvements, money they don't have. And we'd lose the potential for the big companies to invest and improve the railways. Consequently, we'd be left with a worse railway than we currently have.

What needs done, in my opinion, is longer franchises to be issued to promote investment from these companies which would ultimately improve the railways. Currently, there's not much incentive for, say, Northern to buy new trains; they lose the franchise in 2013 and won't see much benefit from the units. A longer contract would allow them to invest and they could see several more years benefit from the units.
 

Mintona

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I'm sorry, but nationalisation is not the way to go. Not at the moment, anyway. We currently have hospitals, education, prisons, defence and so on to fund, and it's already a tight budget. The recession only makes things worse. The railways, although they would pay for themselves to an extent, would require to government to spend more money on improvements, money they don't have. And we'd lose the potential for the big companies to invest and improve the railways. Consequently, we'd be left with a worse railway than we currently have.

What needs done, in my opinion, is longer franchises to be issued to promote investment from these companies which would ultimately improve the railways. Currently, there's not much incentive for, say, Northern to buy new trains; they lose the franchise in 2013 and won't see much benefit from the units. A longer contract would allow them to invest and they could see several more years benefit from the units.

2011 if we don't achieve a PPM of over 92% this year. Still, new uniforms eh?
 

Failed Unit

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I'm sorry, but nationalisation is not the way to go. Not at the moment, anyway. We currently have hospitals, education, prisons, defence and so on to fund, and it's already a tight budget. The recession only makes things worse. The railways, although they would pay for themselves to an extent, would require to government to spend more money on improvements, money they don't have. And we'd lose the potential for the big companies to invest and improve the railways. Consequently, we'd be left with a worse railway than we currently have.

What needs done, in my opinion, is longer franchises to be issued to promote investment from these companies which would ultimately improve the railways. Currently, there's not much incentive for, say, Northern to buy new trains; they lose the franchise in 2013 and won't see much benefit from the units. A longer contract would allow them to invest and they could see several more years benefit from the units.

We are spending a fortune already so if we get rid of the profit that the private companies make we already have a big saving. The longer franchise has sort of been proven with Chiltern, but I remain unconvinced that the bus operators would take the long term view. Central trains had about 11 years too long and rural Lincolnshire only saw them spend money once the franchise ended.

One thing I certainly agree on is that we have too many franchises, maybe 3 will cover things, Inter-City, Regional Railways and Network South East. <D
 

Mojo

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It's clear that the current system of franchising doesn't work and should be looked at. There's just far too much interference from Whitehall and it all appears to be going downhill. In my own opinion I'd prefer privatisation as it seems to attract more skilled and qualified managers who are much more specialised than nationalisation.
 

Failed Unit

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It's clear that the current system of franchising doesn't work and should be looked at. There's just far too much interference from Whitehall and it all appears to be going downhill. In my own opinion I'd prefer privatisation as it seems to attract more skilled and qualified managers who are much more specialised than nationalisation.

I wonder Chris Green would have agreed with you? You can look in the past and find BR also attracted world class skilled managers as well!
 
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Absolute rubbish.

Nationalisation will solve absolutely nothing.

The only people who really want re-nationalisation of the railways are the trade unions, and that's because they believe it will strengthen their ability to extract excessive pay increases. Since privatisation the unions have been unable to bring the rail network to a halt as part of pay negotiations, which was a common occurance throughout the 70s and 80s.

And don't begin to think that nationalisation would lead to new trains, new services, better connections, cheaper fares or better connections.

The removal of competition would see many of the cheaper fares disappear. The services being pioneered by the Open Access operators would almost certainly disappear.


More route miles were closed when the railways were under government control (aka nationalisation) than ever under private control.

Since privatisation there has been a huge growth in both passenger and freight being carried on the railways, due in part to the competitive approach the various companies involved have taken.

To see it passed back to government control doesn't bear thinking about.

You're the one talking rubbish!
The Unions don't want nationalisation to extract excessive pay increases! Are you the only one on this planet that hasn't heard of Drivers pay being increased 4x since privatisation where as under BR we had to fight to get public sector pay rises!
The reason the Unions want re nationalisation is because they believe the Railway should be run as a public service & not for the benifit of private companies & their share holders!
 

Mojo

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I wonder Chris Green would have agreed with you? You can look in the past and find BR also attracted world class skilled managers as well!
Thats true, but many of their greatest plans were cut back and restricted under BR. I am aware that many managers started their days under BR, a few that I (used to) work with were on the BR Management Trainee Scheme, but many of their best ideas were only implimented in the first round of franchising.
 

Failed Unit

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Thats true, but many of their greatest plans were cut back and restricted under BR. I am aware that many managers started their days under BR, a few that I (used to) work with were on the BR Management Trainee Scheme, but many of their best ideas were only implimented in the first round of franchising.

That is a problem with BR, if they had their way we would have many more HST's then we have got now.

However privatisation hasn't really delivered many great improvements, remember GNER's franchise bid of parkway stations, electric horseshoes etc. Going West Virgins orginal plan is well gone on both XC and West Coast.

What would never have happened is the rollingstock issues we have got, cascades would have been well thought out. The 442's would have remained on Wessex for example.

I am sure the frequency increases we have seen would have happened under BR (or at least longer trains amounting to more real seats). Remember as well that the rolling stock replacement program was delayed by privatisation, bar the 365's which was a political move to keep York works open an save votes. Chris Green program of mk1 replacements delayed by privatisation, now we are back to famine and feast.

I am intested to see views of people however that can give examples of things that privatisation has brought us that BR could not have delivered for less and quicker. BR was very good on its constrianed budget, it is just a pity we lost it to see how good it was!
 

Waverley125

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wouldn't be sorry to see Nat Ex go, especially if someone could buy out the GNER branding and bring it back. A proper livery, coachsides insignia, 8 staff onboard and full restaurant service. A proper train company.
 

John_158

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Yeh and i think if things where stilla s BR we would have far more newer Rollingstock than we do have at present.

Along with routes like Livepool-Norwich being electrified with brand new 5 car 350 Desiros.

Also routes such as Liverpool-Blackpool & L-Pool-Manchester Airport would proabbly have 3 car 158s ad proably 180 style units for routes such as Manchester-Millford Haven.
 

Failed Unit

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wouldn't be sorry to see Nat Ex go, especially if someone could buy out the GNER branding and bring it back. A proper livery, coachsides insignia, 8 staff onboard and full restaurant service. A proper train company.

I would prefer to see Inter-City livery back on the 91's, never thought we would be saying BR know how to run a train company well. Please bring them back all is forgiven, I could even connect from an IC to RR train back then!
 

90019

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I would prefer to see Inter-City livery back on the 91's

It did look damn good on them :D

On the livery front, I'm not sure; I always thought there was a lack of inagination in the BR liveries; we had Blue and Grey, the various IC variations that were all similar, and the RR variations that were, again, all a bit samey.
I know there were others, like NSE, but those were the main ones around the UK, AFAIK.

I'm not saying I like every livery around, but I do like the much wider variations there are.
 

Guinness

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Along with routes like Livepool-Norwich being electrified with brand new 5 car 350 Desiros.

I've never heard of that route before? Why does it need to be electrified, surely 2-Car Sprinters on that route would suffice? :roll:
 

A0

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You're the one talking rubbish!
The Unions don't want nationalisation to extract excessive pay increases! Are you the only one on this planet that hasn't heard of Drivers pay being increased 4x since privatisation where as under BR we had to fight to get public sector pay rises!
The reason the Unions want re nationalisation is because they believe the Railway should be run as a public service & not for the benifit of private companies & their share holders!

Forgive my scepticism, but I don't believe the RMT et al are pushing for Nationalisation for altruistic reasons.

If they are, then presumably they wouldn't object to pay revisions and removal of new benefits which the TOCs have provided so as to put rail employees on par with other public sector employees ?

I suspect what would follow if the railways were renationalised is as follows:

- Initial demand for 'normalising' terms of employment, probably looking to normalise on the most generous terms that a current TOC has given. Refusal to accomodate would probably be met with the threat of strike action.

- Demands for the removal of any 'private' contractors in areas such as cleaning, customer service, support services. Again, refusal to accomodate would probably result in strike action.

- Demands for 'pay normalisation' - again, I suspect gravitating towards everybody being paid at the highest possible rate available. Once again, expect strike action if not agreed to.

For those with short memories or who believe I'm scaremongering, let me remind you of 1981.

BR had invested a significant amount of money electrifying the Midland Mainline from Bedford to St Pancras. To the delight of many commuters the old, uncomfortable class 127 DMUs were to be replaced with brand new Class 317 EMUs. Units which today still provide sterling service. For almost a year these brand new units sat in sidings because the NUR / ASLEF refused to allow them to be driven. Why ? Because they objected to OMO.
 

WillPS

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Forgive my scepticism, but I don't believe the RMT et al are pushing for Nationalisation for altruistic reasons.

If they are, then presumably they wouldn't object to pay revisions and removal of new benefits which the TOCs have provided so as to put rail employees on par with other public sector employees ?

I suspect what would follow if the railways were renationalised is as follows:

- Initial demand for 'normalising' terms of employment, probably looking to normalise on the most generous terms that a current TOC has given. Refusal to accomodate would probably be met with the threat of strike action.

- Demands for the removal of any 'private' contractors in areas such as cleaning, customer service, support services. Again, refusal to accomodate would probably result in strike action.

- Demands for 'pay normalisation' - again, I suspect gravitating towards everybody being paid at the highest possible rate available. Once again, expect strike action if not agreed to.

For those with short memories or who believe I'm scaremongering, let me remind you of 1981.

BR had invested a significant amount of money electrifying the Midland Mainline from Bedford to St Pancras. To the delight of many commuters the old, uncomfortable class 127 DMUs were to be replaced with brand new Class 317 EMUs. Units which today still provide sterling service. For almost a year these brand new units sat in sidings because the NUR / ASLEF refused to allow them to be driven. Why ? Because they objected to OMO.
Again you're under the impression that history is bound to repeat itself. Thatcher took away many of the union's rights in the eighties, things just wont happen like that again; them days are over.

Besides, I dare say that even with the pay normalisation there'd still be massive economies made on the current franchising arrangement. Frankly, I'd prefer that the nice people who come along clipping my tickets with a smile get a bonus than the shareholders who largely do nothing for us.
 

A0

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Again you're under the impression that history is bound to repeat itself. Thatcher took away many of the union's rights in the eighties, things just wont happen like that again; them days are over.

Besides, I dare say that even with the pay normalisation there'd still be massive economies made on the current franchising arrangement. Frankly, I'd prefer that the nice people who come along clipping my tickets with a smile get a bonus than the shareholders who largely do nothing for us.

The irony of your statement is that under private companies it's far more likely that the 'nice people who come along clipping your tickets' actually get a bonus than they would under state control.

Most major PLCs also offer various employee share schemes, so the chances are most staff are able to invest in the company they work for as well on a tax free basis.
 

AlexS

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Forgive my scepticism, but I don't believe the RMT et al are pushing for Nationalisation for altruistic reasons.

If they are, then presumably they wouldn't object to pay revisions and removal of new benefits which the TOCs have provided so as to put rail employees on par with other public sector employees ?

I suspect what would follow if the railways were renationalised is as follows:

- Initial demand for 'normalising' terms of employment, probably looking to normalise on the most generous terms that a current TOC has given. Refusal to accomodate would probably be met with the threat of strike action.

- Demands for the removal of any 'private' contractors in areas such as cleaning, customer service, support services. Again, refusal to accomodate would probably result in strike action.

- Demands for 'pay normalisation' - again, I suspect gravitating towards everybody being paid at the highest possible rate available. Once again, expect strike action if not agreed to.

For those with short memories or who believe I'm scaremongering, let me remind you of 1981.

BR had invested a significant amount of money electrifying the Midland Mainline from Bedford to St Pancras. To the delight of many commuters the old, uncomfortable class 127 DMUs were to be replaced with brand new Class 317 EMUs. Units which today still provide sterling service. For almost a year these brand new units sat in sidings because the NUR / ASLEF refused to allow them to be driven. Why ? Because they objected to OMO.

I'd suggest one man operation has genuine safety concerns anyway - in several large accidents (especially the GW ones of the 90s and 00s) the train guard has been listed as helpful in the aftermath of an accident for evacuating passengers and communication etc.

If you have an accident that unfortunately results in the death of the driver you are left with an accident site which with the removal of things like local signalboxes etc is likely to have no rail staff in the immediate aftermath.

DOO is nothing but a cost saving measure (which is ironic because it is generally implemented on the trains with the highest loadings!).

This is well demonstrated by the fact that South West Trains, despite operating many similar services to the DOO TOCs employ guards (some of whom do not do revenue duties) on all of their services.
 

WillPS

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The irony of your statement is that under private companies it's far more likely that the 'nice people who come along clipping your tickets' actually get a bonus than they would under state control.

Most major PLCs also offer various employee share schemes, so the chances are most staff are able to invest in the company they work for as well on a tax free basis.
Pretty capitalistic view you have. The problem is, those shares can go down in value aswell as up - rarely are they as sound a prospect as a proper government backed pension scheme.

Additionally, I'm sure they'd appreciate a bit of employer security - many have been employed by 3 or 4 different companies now all operating on the same job. Each time a franchise is renewed their job is on the line, can't be a brilliant feeling.
 

Metroland

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The RMT are for nationalisation for idealistic reasons. The Labour party was born of the railway unions in Doncaster, as well as all the other worker movements at the time. Chiefly a protest against the division between the high pay of the ruling class, and the grinding poverty of workers at the time - although railwaymen up until the 1960s were always relatively well paid.

Having said that, there is a bigger division between rich and poor now, with a few percent owning most of the wealth, and the under 35s have most of the debt.

The RMT are a bit of an anachronism, most railway workers are not avid socialists, but they are still strong because of safety risks of doing the job and have a long and proud history of defending terms and conditions - not always to the benefit of the rail industry as it does not work in isolation within transport! Other modes are notorious for anti-union practices, especially road haulage where much of the workforce has been and is recruited from the forces - whose mentality has always been against popular organisation of workers against their 'superiors'.

The RMT have now cut its ties with the Labour party - who now support much of the short contract, sweat shop globalisation methods and hold companies up in high esteem who do much to undermine workers rights either here or abroad.

The RMT also objects to the profits taken by private companies for what is essentially little risk - most of the TOCs (which the exception of one or two like Chiltern) are not very entrepreneurial and are really just management contracts - expensive ones at that.

When the railways were built, at least 4 times more value was had by the nation from them as the entrepreneurs got back in share values and dividends. These days, because of competing modes, it is almost impossible to make profit except for maybe freight, and a limited amount of intercity and commuter lines, but lines are supported for 'positive externalities'

Its noteworthy that some of the TOCs share prices are going down, as the ORR have granted access agreements to the new open access companies like GC and have turned down NXEC's request to run services to Lincoln.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/30/east-coast-mainline-shares

The TOCs would argue the open access operators cherry pick services and TOCs are left with more regulation and little opportunity to exploit the market in the same way.

This isn't far removed from nationalising the lot, leaving the state with naturally loss making services and inviting private companies to come in and cherry pick profit making ones. Which might sound 'bloody stupid', but the reality is private companies will only get involved where there is profits to be made or massive, almost no lose, state guarantees. No private company goes into business to make a loss - it could neither raise the money for investment or service its debts - that's how capitalism works.

With the railways of Europe and forced to have 'open access', again for this reason I can't really see it being nationalised 'properly', because of the cherry picking problem, which would be even worse than it is now.

Nevertheless it doesn't mean loss making services have no 'value'. The majority of benefits (and disbenefits) from transport tend to be outside the fare box.

While A level students are taught nationalisation is bad (except for banks it appears) and unions practices are restrictive and stop the correct working of the market - this under a Labour government - I can't see there being much of a case for nationalisation.

Having said that, while the economists and politicians have their own ideas about globalisation and opening markets to competition (a right wing capitalist ideology) it appears in the down times workers may have other ideas, with spreading protests and riots across the globe and in this country to protect jobs and conditions. Essentially protectionism with the usual arguments against markets and capitalism: Myopic, non reflection of externalities (positive or negative), exploitation of workers, materials and animals in the quest for the cheapest product/service, doesn't respect cultures or social need, transfers wealth to the rich. And no doubt the usual arguments will go against socialism and protectionism: Inefficient allocation of products and services, is less efficient at generating wealth, leads to less choice.

In short, the organisation of wants and needs will always be open to emotive arguments and at some level, protection of ones own interests, whether you are a customer, worker, investor, manager or entrepreneur.
 
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