New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[embers25]

I am really hoping that Stagecoach win again. In my opinion Stagecoach South West Trains have done a brilliant job and are one of the best TOCs in the UK.

100% agree...their only two flaws have been the weekend super off peak fare rises and their awful website upgrade and their refusal to do anything about it and in particular their claim that their website sells the cheapest tickets when it doesn't. operationally they have been one of the best TOCS although with all the padding in their timetables its not that surprising. When you add 10-15 minutes at least to journeys they will tend to run more on time!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've been unable to figure this out. It's beyond stupid to be honest.
If the franchise changes and I do say IF as I haven't a clue, it will be first time in 20 years, as stagecoach have held it for the whole time (barring the 1st year I think).
The Waterloo upgrade work is being touted as the biggest project for the swml in decades and the publicity about the partial closure of Waterloo (swt hub and busiest station in country for passenger numbers) in August has been advertised for a while.
Who on this earth thought combining the two events was a good idea?????

Stagecoach were offered a 6-year franchise extension (direct award) to cover the upgrade period, but did not like the terms.
So they terminated their own franchise and it went to open competition.
If they win, they will have it on better terms than DfT originally offered.
They are evidently prepared to lose to First/MTR, if the price is not right.
The upgrade situation turns the pressure on to DfT (and potentially First/MTR), not Stagecoach.
I'd say it was good negotiating.
On top of that, the rescheduling of franchise competitions to fit in SWT extended the Virgin West Coast franchise (49% Stagecoach-owned) by 2 years, and now opens up the combined ICWC/HS2 opportunity.

Stagecoach won the initial South Western franchise, in Feb 1996.
It's the longest unchanged franchise ownership (Virgin West Coast was let a year later).

 

[Robertj21a]

Just goes to show what a quality operator/management can achieve.

 

[HH]

Personally hoping it's Stagecoach again, it's been a professional operation.

Well the winner will have an "st" in their name.

 

[HH]

I've read the lack of bidders mean DfT wont get good terms. They were hoping for a cash cow. If that's not the case that will impact on following franchise bid specifications. If so good luck to those coming up shortly after.

This is all supposition, but it ought to be obvious that bidders will tend to bid lower when they're up against only one other bidder, compared to 4 or 5. That said, I feel that the changes DfT have made to Franchise Agreements are also likely to lead to lower bids; the more you try to push risk onto bidders, the more they will price that risk into their bid. Moreover, some will find the risk levels too 'bracing' for their taste, hence why only two bidders.

A double whammy you might say.

 

[HH]

Stagecoach were offered a 6-year franchise extension (direct award) to cover the upgrade period, but did not like the terms.
So they terminated their own franchise and it went to open competition.
If they win, they will have it on better terms than DfT originally offered.
They are evidently prepared to lose to First/MTR, if the price is not right.
The upgrade situation turns the pressure on to DfT (and potentially First/MTR), not Stagecoach.
I'd say it was good negotiating.

Maybe. To look at it another way, you ****ed off the guys making the decision and you told the opposition where you wouldn't go price-wise.

 

[Tio Terry]

I hope SSWT win it - but will the DfT require them to implement DOO as per Southern? I hope not.

Chris Grayling uses SSWT from Ashtead to Waterloo sometimes, wonder if he will want Southern type disruption?

 

[theironroad]

I wonder if that gives Stagecoach an advantage with the bidding.

That has crossed my mind.

If the franchise does change hands and the Waterloo blockade ends in chaos, the blame will be firmly with the DfT as they chose to exercise their contractual right to extend the franchise by 6 months from the original end date of February 2017.

 

[hwl]

Maybe. To look at it another way, you ****ed off the guys making the decision and you told the opposition where you wouldn't go price-wise.

It don't think the opposition would have gone there price-wise either, slightly lack of understanding DfT wise.

 

[hwl]

This is all supposition, but it ought to be obvious that bidders will tend to bid lower when they're up against only one other bidder, compared to 4 or 5. That said, I feel that the changes DfT have made to Franchise Agreements are also likely to lead to lower bids; the more you try to push risk onto bidders, the more they will price that risk into their bid. Moreover, some will find the risk levels too 'bracing' for their taste, hence why only two bidders.

A double whammy you might say.

Indeed but they as they get a premium in from the current franchisee that covers their portion of the NR Grant too and will get this in from the next one as well, they may not be too worried about raking in massive amount as it pays its way already and passenger growth via investment is then a good way to increase premia from the operator with decent franchise lenght.

 

[387star]

Stagecoach South west trains is a very professional competent toc that seems to manage a consistently high standard of train presentation

So good are they that in 2007 there was public opposition to the idea they might change hands

They also have two of the most luxurious fleets in the country... The 444 and 159 which of course helps.

Yes the portsmouth direct line mob have moaned about the loss of 444s but they still see some so it is not a total wipe out

First class is the best in the whole south east and worth paying extra for

Can't fault them really. They even replaced all their station signage and information screens a while back ... Goes to show what haopen with a well run toc on a long franchise

East midlands trains appear good as well

 

[Juniper Driver]

The depots must be commended for their maintenance also.

 

[sk688]

I think you are rather overstating the case for more 700s. TL runs on 8/12 cars, whereas 455 replacement will likely be either 5 or 10 car. Compatibility with the 377 fleet would be rather more useful (but equally unlikely now production has switched to Aventra).

As for GTR still being there, they are currently serving as useful lightning conductor for DfT. How long that continues for is anyone's guess.

Isnt Derby still making 387s , so technically they could make a version of the 387 with 377 compatibility , but it is unlikely

 

[Joe Paxton]

Just goes to show what a quality operator/management can achieve.

They learnt the hard way though - initially under Stagecoach ownership they decided they had too many drivers, let many go and then found themselves with a driver shortage completely of their own making. Souter realised it wasn't quite like running a bus company (though even a bus company needs enough drivers too).

One of their ways they tried to win back the favour of their potential passengers after this was to have a day where they offered free tickets to anywhere on their network - however the instructions were misunderstood at a number of ticket offices, with free tickets offered to anywhere in Britain and some managed to get free Eurostar tickets.

 

[HH]

Indeed but they as they get a premium in from the current franchisee that covers their portion of the NR Grant too and will get this in from the next one as well, they may not be too worried about raking in massive amount as it pays its way already and passenger growth via investment is then a good way to increase premia from the operator with decent franchise lenght.

Theoretically you might have been right, but the grapevine says otherwise...

 

[HH]

I hope SSWT win it - but will the DfT require them to implement DOO as per Southern? I hope not.

There is no mandatory DOO in the ITT, nor would it be practical to go DOO over the whole, or even most, of the SW Network during this franchise. Nevertheless it is still on the DfT's wishlist, so don't be surprised to see some at some point.

 

[Suraggu]

100% agree...their only two flaws have been the weekend super off peak fare rises and their awful website upgrade and their refusal to do anything about it and in particular their claim that their website sells the cheapest tickets when it doesn't. operationally they have been one of the best TOCS although with all the padding in their timetables its not that surprising. When you add 10-15 minutes at least to journeys they will tend to run more on time!

You obviously have not seen the Waterloo turnarounds then.

 

[Goldfish62]

I see the SWT / Stagecoach Fanclub is out in force. As a suburban computer on their services since the first franchise I certainly don't share these views. SWT is mediocre at best. At worst unreliable, filthy trains and unprofessional staff.

Having said all that, better the devil you know and it's probably for the best that Stagecoach retains the franchise, if only because the alternative would probably be even worse.

Those who blindly assume that SWT wouldn't go DOO may be in for a shock though... If DOO does happen I do have confidence that Stagecoach will handle it a lot more effectively than the lamentable GTR though.

 

[The Ham]

You obviously have not seen the Waterloo turnarounds then.

Although some of the other end turn arounds can be nearly 30 minutes.

Having said that so trains are so busy that even with the padding they run late due to the number of passengers getting on and off.

 

[The Ham]

I see the SWT / Stagecoach Fanclub is out in force. As a suburban computer on their services since the first franchise I certainly don't share these views. SWT is mediocre at best. At worst unreliable, filthy trains and unprofessional staff.

Having said all that, better the devil you know and it's probably for the best that Stagecoach retains the franchise, if only because the alternative would probably be even worse.

Those who blindly assume that SWT wouldn't go DOO may be in for a shock though... If DOO does happen I do have confidence that Stagecoach will handle it a lot more effectively than the lamentable GTR though.

Very rarely am I late to work (including having to change trains) and when I am it is more often than not it is due to someone being killed.

I don't remember the last time a train was shot formed, but it does happen on occasion.

My biggest bugbear is the choice of trains they choose to cancel during disruption in the evening, as they will often cancel the Basingstoke stoppers meaning that it is impossible (or at least very difficult) to get from Woking to Farnborough. Yet the majority of those going to Farnborough and stations west towards Basingstoke are OK as they can still get the on the trains that run fast out of Waterloo to Farnborough before calling at all stations to Basingstoke.

There are improvements that would be very good if they were to happen, but over all they do OK.

 

[Suraggu]

Although some of the other end turn arounds can be nearly 30 minutes.

Having said that so trains are so busy that even with the padding they run late due to the number of passengers getting on and off.

Yes at Waterloo generally the mainline trains have 20-30mins turnround but the Surburban and Winsdors have generally 7-13 minute turn rounds. If you have late trains on the up it really does have a knock on effect.

Mind you The Pooles have huge padding at Soton to allow a faster Weymouth through.

 

[theironroad]

I see the SWT / Stagecoach Fanclub is out in force. As a suburban computer on their services since the first franchise I certainly don't share these views. SWT is mediocre at best. At worst unreliable, filthy trains and unprofessional staff.

Why do you find Swt staff unprofessional?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why do you find Swt staff unprofessional?

Compared to many (barrier) staff of a certain TOC that operates nearby...

 

[Robertj21a]

I see the SWT / Stagecoach Fanclub is out in force. As a suburban computer on their services since the first franchise I certainly don't share these views. SWT is mediocre at best. At worst unreliable, filthy trains and unprofessional staff.

Having said all that, better the devil you know and it's probably for the best that Stagecoach retains the franchise, if only because the alternative would probably be even worse.

Those who blindly assume that SWT wouldn't go DOO may be in for a shock though... If DOO does happen I do have confidence that Stagecoach will handle it a lot more effectively than the lamentable GTR though.

It's not a question of any Fanclub, it's recognition of a professional operation that appears to have far greater capability than the vast majority of the others.

 

[HH]

Stagecoach is run reasonably well, compared to other LSE TOCs (outside those run by TfL). You might think that this is damning by faint praise, but I couldn't possibly comment.

Exactly how many of the staff would be expected to change under a new Operator. Very, very few, going on previous history by the other bidders. You might think that very little expertise would be lost. You might think that...

 

[hwl]

Stagecoach is run reasonably well, compared to other LSE TOCs (outside those run by TfL). You might think that this is damning by faint praise, but I couldn't possibly comment.

Exactly how many of the staff would be expected to change under a new Operator. Very, very few, going on previous history by the other bidders. You might think that very little expertise would be lost. You might think that...

GTR seemed to lose plenty of useful Southern staff that normally would have been retained without a merge type scenario and lost plenty of expertise lets hope something similar doesn't occur with SWT.
Complete agree on SWT being better than the rest and hopefully not many changes, unless you have tried the other TOCs SWT shouldn't be knocked.

 

[pompeyfan]

Something needs to be done in terms of dwell times at smaller Surrey (and Hampshire) stations on the direct line, trains constantly lose time at places such as Milford and Liss because all the passengers insist on exiting from just 2 doors out of a possible 10, just so they're close to the station exit.

 

[Suraggu]

I know it has been looked at in the past but I would not be surprised that when the class 450's are due a full overhaul (top and bottom) the next franchise holder could make them 2+2 with more standing room to help with station dwell times.

I also wouldnt be surprised a certian bidder looking at a large order for 707 10 cars to replace the 455/456 by the end of the franchise. With the DFT target for dwell times on the Suburban routes the 707 meets those requirements.

With the plan for the Reading and Windsor being every 15 minutes more trains instead of shorterrors trains is likely.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I know it has been looked at in the past but I would not be surprised that when the class 450's are due a full overhaul (top and bottom) the next franchise holder could make them 2+2 with more standing room to help with station dwell times.

Unlikely as iirc SWTs are required to provide a certain number of seats for trains into Portsmouth, I don't know if they'd fall foul of the requirement if they made them 2+2

 

[embers25]

You obviously have not seen the Waterloo turnarounds then.

As a regular West of England Line commuter the service is certainly a million times better than it used to be, as is the local suburban service around Waterloo, despite the tight turnrounds. Punctuality wise the main issues are with Network Rail and suicides, both of which they have tried to address. The only line that still really struggles is the Pompey Direct. Their trains inside and out are in a better state than almost any other operator, as are their stations. There are still areas for improvement (including their insanely expensive fares compared to other operators over similar distances) and if you see my other posts on this forum you would definitely not call me a "fan" but certainly better the devil you know applies here and they could certainly have done much worse. If you want short turnrounds try GWR on the North Downs Line in peak where they can be negative at both ends and the Basingstoke-Reading line isn't much better!! Also it is noteworthy than when they do cancel the 0510 from Exeter (yes I know they would know the night before as the crew sleep on it overnight) they still manage to put on two replacement buses at short notice so the delay is only 30 minutes.