Merseytravel Liverpool Lime St Recommendations

[lfc2014uk]

Sources at Merseytravel have told me that they are currently seeking 6 new services from Dec 2018 timetable to start and finish at Liverpool Lime Street.

To maximise services they are looking at bi/hourly services and increased services to these destinations:

Liverpool - Cardiff via Halton Curve & Chester (bi)
Liverpool - Holyhead via Halton Curve & Chester (bi)
Liverpool - East Midlands Airport via Crewe & Derby (bi)
Liverpool - Glasgow via Newton-Le-Willows (TPE 3 services already confirmed)
Liverpool - Norwich (1/2hr services using cascaded 158/9 from SWT)
Liverpool - Bradford via Manchester V & Halifax (Northern Confirmed)

This will all come together when capacity works at lime street is 75% complete

 

[Tubeboy]

Sounds great. But how are SWT cascading stock? I thought they needed their 158/9s? Are they going to run the rest of the fleet harder?

 

[Camden]

What's the point of the East Midlands airport one? Why not terminate in Leicester at least?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Glasgow TPE will be via St Helens Central (normally).
The Northern Manchester Airport service (CLC) is not mentioned.
It would be difficult to run a third fast that way, because of the stoppers.
Plenty of scope for bi-modes on the routes mentioned.

 

[notlob.divad]

The Glasgow TPE will be via St Helens Central (normally).
The Northern Manchester Airport service (CLC) is not mentioned.
It would be difficult to run a third fast that way, because of the stoppers.
Plenty of scope for bi-modes on the routes mentioned.

But the CLC airport express is not really new. It is only new in the same sense as trans pennine via St Helens junction and Newton is new.

Could you explain why an extra path on the CLC with the double track to south parkway is so hard to find when 2 plus freight have been found on Chat Moss route at as far as Earlestown. Plus the TPE and ATW paths across the Moss from there.

 

[fowler9]

But the CLC airport express is not really new. It is only new in the same sense as trans pennine via St Helens junction and Newton is new.

Could you explain why an extra path on the CLC with the double track to south parkway is so hard to find when 2 plus freight have been found on Chat Moss route at as far as Earlestown. Plus the TPE and ATW paths across the Moss from there.

I don't know the precise problem with the CLC route but as someone who very regularly uses Parkway to get to Lime Street I have observed that the EMT and TPE services heading for Liverpool are very frequently held up by the Northern services, particularly during peak periods. The Northern services then often moves to the slows for the fasts to overtake.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could you explain why an extra path on the CLC with the double track to south parkway is so hard to find when 2 plus freight have been found on Chat Moss route at as far as Earlestown. Plus the TPE and ATW paths across the Moss from there.

Look at the number of local stations and you'll see why. Really, it either needs the wires or very high-powered DMUs like 185s (but geared to 75mph) to be able to create paths. As long as it's Sprinters or Pacers, unless you close a load of stations there's no chance.

With 2tph fast, 1tph semi and 1tph stopper at each end split at Warrington (as it used to be) punctuality was atrocious. The new skip-stop arrangement improved it, but really it needs a proper solution.

 

[8J]

You'll probably find that the Northern services down the Cheshire lines set off late from Oxford Road due to being regulated for TPE/EMT services. What they really need is another passing loop on top of the one already in existence at Glazebrook to improve the reliability down there.

 

[lfc2014uk]

What's the point of the East Midlands airport one? Why not terminate in Leicester at least?

The point is that if the WCML was closed again at any point shut there would be another pathway to london on the MML. With the possibility in future the Class 222 would move to that route or Norwich Liverpool route

 

[lfc2014uk]

You'll probably find that the Northern services down the Cheshire lines set off late from Oxford Road due to being regulated for TPE/EMT services. What they really need is another passing loop on top of the one already in existence at Glazebrook to improve the reliability down there.

TPE Scarborough is moving to Liverpool- Manchester Victoria line at the end of this year allowing a 2nd ENT service and a non stop Northern to Manchester Pic

 

[lfc2014uk]

Sounds great. But how are SWT cascading stock? I thought they needed their 158/9s? Are they going to run the rest of the fleet harder?

The 158/9 from SWT lease from Porterbrook finishes next month so they haven't renewed it so as they get there new rolling stock these units will be cascaded to sister company EMT for work up north

 

[Nean]

You'll probably find that the Northern services down the Cheshire lines set off late from Oxford Road due to being regulated for TPE/EMT services. What they really need is another passing loop on top of the one already in existence at Glazebrook to improve the reliability down there.

It doesn't help that the Glazebrook loop is in the Liverpool-bound direction and in my experience is only used when the express is running ~10m behind the stopper. Not to mention that this makes the stopper then run quite nicely behind schedule and then hold up the next express!

At the moment, the stopper is rarely on time (the one I'm currently on is now reporting 7L on RTT) which with only 2.5 minutes of timing allowance per run and a fairly tight turnaround at MCO can begin to make the delays spiral quite nicely!

 

[Philip]

Where will the stock come from to run these new Liverpool-Cardiff/Holyhead services? Even if the current Holyhead-Cardiff service makes way, there aren't enough units at present to cover what's proposed. The 175s are stretched enough covering what they do as it is.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could you explain why an extra path on the CLC with the double track to south parkway is so hard to find when 2 plus freight have been found on Chat Moss route at as far as Earlestown. Plus the TPE and ATW paths across the Moss from there.

The current Oxford Road stoppers leave each end immediately after the semi-fasts, and are caught up by the next if there is any delay (which is quite often with trains coming from Yorkshire/Norwich).
It really needs platform loops half-way at Warrington, but that is exactly where you can't build one because of the station/viaduct constraints.
The current track layout doesn't allow looping with bi-di signalling either.
Warrington West is also due to open soon.
I believe it will replace Sankey as an off-peak stop, but it remains to be seen what the timetable looks like if stopping trains have to call at both stations.
Of course the extra Norwich train could run via Chat Moss if needed.

 

[Bevan Price]

Sources at Merseytravel have told me that they are currently seeking 6 new services from Dec 2018 timetable to start and finish at Liverpool Lime Street.

To maximise services they are looking at bi/hourly services and increased services to these destinations:

Liverpool - Cardiff via Halton Curve & Chester (bi)
Liverpool - Holyhead via Halton Curve & Chester (bi)
Liverpool - East Midlands Airport via Crewe & Derby (bi)
Liverpool - Glasgow via Newton-Le-Willows (TPE 3 services already confirmed)
Liverpool - Norwich (1/2hr services using cascaded 158/9 from SWT)
Liverpool - Bradford via Manchester V & Halifax (Northern Confirmed)

This will all come together when capacity works at lime street is 75% complete

Liverpool - Holyhead.
Pointless, not much point going further than Bangor or Llandudno

Liverpool - East Midlands Airport.
Silly. Should either go to Leicester / Nottingham, or terminate at Derby. But doubt if paths can be found through Crewe. How many people in Liverpool area want to go to East Midlands Airport when Liverpool & Manchester Airports are nearer and/or better-served ?

Liverpool - Norwich twice per hour ?
Another silly idea. If paths can be found to Sheffield, it would be much better to run to Doncaster & Hull once per hour (i.e. limk to existing Sheffield / Hull services.)

Liverpool - Bradford. Bad idea until (or if) Calder Valley is electrified. It will just effectively replace a Liverpool - Manchester emu by a (smaller) dmu under the wires.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It really needs platform loops half-way at Warrington

Or to revert to operating a Liverpool-Warrington and Warrington-Manchester stopping service, whereby you get it out of the way by sending it back in the other direction. The old old pattern for years was 1tph stopper on each end (some of the Manchester ones only went as far as Irlam from Manchester I think), 1tph semifast throughout to the Airport, 1tph TPE, 1tph Norwich.

 

[erk]

some of the Manchester ones only went as far as Irlam from Manchester I think

That was when there was a speed restriction on Irlam viaduct. At first, trains terminated as Flixton. To extend them (in passenger service) to Irlam they had to miss out either Chassen Road or Trafford Park + Humphrey Park, which they still do.

The Flixton terminators reversed at Glazebrook, so they had to run ECS up to the viaduct, through the speed restriction twice and through Irlam station twice. It always seemed a very inefficient way of doing things.

Since the viaduct was refurbished, trains have run at least as far as Warrington. The 0.5tph service at Trafford Park, Humphrey Park and Chassen Road remains.

 

[frodshamfella]

Liverpool - Holyhead.
Pointless, not much point going further than Bangor or Llandudno

Liverpool - East Midlands Airport.
Silly. Should either go to Leicester / Nottingham, or terminate at Derby. But doubt if paths can be found through Crewe. How many people in Liverpool area want to go to East Midlands Airport when Liverpool & Manchester Airports are nearer and/or better-served ?

Liverpool - Norwich twice per hour ?
Another silly idea. If paths can be found to Sheffield, it would be much better to run to Doncaster & Hull once per hour (i.e. limk to existing Sheffield / Hull services.)

Liverpool - Bradford. Bad idea until (or if) Calder Valley is electrified. It will just effectively replace a Liverpool - Manchester emu by a (smaller) dmu under the wires.

I agree not sure how many people would pick to go to East Midlands Airport in the Merseyside area, a future link and station at Liverpool Airport would be much more useful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree not sure how many people would pick to go to East Midlands Airport in the Merseyside area, a future link and station at Liverpool Airport would be much more useful.

Yes, that one baffles me. I suppose it provides a link to Leicester, but I doubt the demand is particularly high for that, and sorting out connectivity and quality to Bedford-Bletchley as part of EWR will provide that as well.

 

[Camden]

Perhaps it's about people coming into the UK from elsewhere? Liverpool's quite a draw in that respect, I recall reading that new routes of Liverpool Airport tend to do very well right from the off on inbound passengers.

But it does seem strange to terminate there. I don't understand why it doesn't go to Nottingham or Leicester.

The route from Crewe to Derby is slow though. It would be great to see an east-west push in speeding that up.

 

[frodshamfella]

Perhaps it's about people coming into the UK from elsewhere? Liverpool's quite a draw in that respect, I recall reading that new routes of Liverpool Airport tend to do very well right from the off on inbound passengers.

But it does seem strange to terminate there. I don't understand why it doesn't go to Nottingham or Leicester.

The route from Crewe to Derby is slow though. It would be great to see an east-west push in speeding that up.

I wasn't aware of a station at East Midlands Airport actually, new one on me.

 

[frodshamfella]

Good to read about the services to Chester and beyond via Halton Curve. I hope a new station for Beechwood arrives at some point in the future on the curve.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wasn't aware of a station at East Midlands Airport actually, new one on me.

It's barely used for that purpose. Or indeed any other purpose - rather a white elephant.

 

[Bevan Price]

It's barely used for that purpose. Or indeed any other purpose - rather a white elephant.

Yes, it about a 3 mile bus ride between the station & airport. Except that buses now run direct from Nottingham, Derby and Leicester to the airport, and I believe they no longer serve East Midlands Parkway station.

 

[Philip]

Good to read about the services to Chester and beyond via Halton Curve. I hope a new station for Beechwood arrives at some point in the future on the curve.

I still can't see how there will be the stock to cover it as things are now. 158s will be fully stretched on their Cambrian-Birmingham duties and there already aren't enough 175s to fully cover their priority routes of services out of Manchester to North and South Wales.

Perhaps there will be more LHCS services as a result?

 

[whoosh]

East Midlands Airport Parkway eh?

But the signalling there doesn't allow a train to terminate and go back in the other direction! It would have to be Loughborough (slow line platform) or Leicester to be able to turn back.

 

[driver_m]

Liverpool - Holyhead.
Pointless, not much point going further than Bangor or Llandudno

Liverpool - East Midlands Airport.
Silly. Should either go to Leicester / Nottingham, or terminate at Derby. But doubt if paths can be found through Crewe. How many people in Liverpool area want to go to East Midlands Airport when Liverpool & Manchester Airports are nearer and/or better-served ?

Liverpool - Norwich twice per hour ?
Another silly idea. If paths can be found to Sheffield, it would be much better to run to Doncaster & Hull once per hour (i.e. limk to existing Sheffield / Hull services.)

Liverpool - Bradford. Bad idea until (or if) Calder Valley is electrified. It will just effectively replace a Liverpool - Manchester emu by a (smaller) dmu under the wires.

Holyhead makes good sense for crew changes. Bangor isn't ideal in that respect because of needing to do shunt moves and also getting crew there yet there's clear demand as Bangor can be very busy.

The East Mids routes prob a good idea as it often now comes up a lot on cheap flight searches like Leeds/Bradford. Which is another poorly served airport for public transport.

Another point that someone made about the CLC route which hasn't been mentioned is the conflicts that are done at South Parkway area. It needs to have one box overseeing all of it to become more efficient. Not the 3 boxes that are currently overseeing it.

 

[northwichcat]

Liverpool - Norwich (1/2hr services using cascaded 158/9 from SWT)

Sounds great. But how are SWT cascading stock? I thought they needed their 158/9s? Are they going to run the rest of the fleet harder?

Stagecoach have looked at new self-powered trains for their SWT bid plus there's the option of cascaded 185s but neither option would free up 158s by 2018.

Also given TPE are running 2tph between Liverpool and Manchester via Chat Moss and a Northern Connect service to Manchester Airport will be running in the path currently used by TPE on the CLC I can't see there being provision for a 5th fast service between Liverpool and Manchester.

 

[Camden]

Surely that would be a 2nd fast service? There's only one that takes half an hour.

More likely it's a semi-fast service (should we really be calling these semi-slows?).

 

[frodshamfella]

I still can't see how there will be the stock to cover it as things are now. 158s will be fully stretched on their Cambrian-Birmingham duties and there already aren't enough 175s to fully cover their priority routes of services out of Manchester to North and South Wales.

Perhaps there will be more LHCS services as a result?

Well they need to do something, got on at Runcorn East to go to WBQ on Saturday at about 11, two carriages only, rammed, standing everywhere.