• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Greater Anglia Timetable: What would you do?

Status
Not open for further replies.

09ndodge

Member
Joined
12 Mar 2016
Messages
11
So as we know the Greater Anglia timetable is basically going to be rewritten for Dec 2019.

It would be interesting to hear what changes, no matter how small, people would like to see?

This is assuming no unplanned infrastructure changes and that the Stadler fleet is in place as the current timescale suggest.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

SprinterMan

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2010
Messages
2,341
Location
Hertford
Shippea Hill to get an hourly service ;)

Seems a bit conservative, personally I would 3rd rail electrify Ely to Shippea Hill and provide a metro-style service to Ely using all those 442s that live there now :P

In all seriousness, Greater Anglia's own proposals seem pretty decent. Sudbury trains through to Colchester Town, 3tph to Norwich, Hourly Peterborough to Colchester, Lowestoft to London direct etc. I personaly would like to see more Harwich to London direct trains but am unsure if demand is there. If we are talking pure pie-in-the sky thinking then I would like to see the Ipswich to Peterborough service extended at both ends and running Colchester to Lincoln via Spalding, subject to the new Werrrington flyover and additional diesle stock of course :P

Adam :D
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
2,043
On the rural side...

Sudbury - Most trains are planned to operate through to Colchester Town, hopefully given the new units are bi-mode the services will be combined with the existing Colchester -Walton-on-the-Naze local service...

Felixstowe - I would suggest that the branch is largely given over to freight off peak and busstituted to save a lot of money providing new infrastructure for the growing container traffic...

East Suffolk Line - Whilst there's an extra morning Ipswich-Lowestoft service planned, with a bit of timetable tweaking an extra PM peak hour Ipswich-Saxmundham service could operate... There are already 0744, 0809 & 0857 Ipswich arrivals yet only 1554, 1717 and 1817 departures... It's about 20 minutes from Woodbridge to Saxmundham so with a bit of tweaking 3 trains in total in the Peak hour could be squeezed in like they do in the morning.. It may mean stabling the unit on the Leiston branch for a while until you can get it back to Ipswich... I don't think the freight operates to Leiston any more...

Ipswich-Cambridge - An extra peak hour arrival in to Cambridge is already proposed (one assumes 0720 Ipswich-Cambridge) but sadly nothing in the evening peak from Cambridge... Again with a bit of tweaking the existing infrastructure would allow a 1700ish Cambridge-Ipswich (passing at Dullingham) to operate... Ridership on this line has rocketed since it went hourly about a decade ago... Should new stations ever get built at Fulbourne/Cherry Hinton then an extra loop and a half hourly service will be needed... And to think that about 15 years ago there were some 3 hour gaps in the single car 153 operated service!!!

Ipswich-Peterborough - Service is proposed to go hourly and be extended to/from Colchester... Given the increasing container traffic, more cross London container services being routed this way, the lack of loops capable of holding a full length container train and the constraints of Ely North Junction which is already at nearly full capacity, the 5 miles of single track Ely to Soham, and the absolute block sections Ely to Peterborough which limit capacity, I have my doubts whether this service will be able to be pathed or operated reliably...

Cambridge-Norwich - Service proposed to be extended through to Stansted airport but again no extra peak hour services into and out of Cambridge... Again with the propsed Stansted-Stratford service meaning 14 trains each hour through the single track tunnel at Stansted I expect reliability will not be as good as the existing Cambridge-Norwich service...

Lowestoft/Gt Yarmouth-Norwich - I would like to see both routes have a half hourly peak hour service and half hourly summer service on the Gt Yarmouth route...

Sheringham Line - Would like to see at least an extra peak hour service, which can be done with the existing infrastructure... Or ideally half hourly all day as far as North Walsham... Extra summer services are already needed on the route... Wasn't a new town (garden city type thing) proposed near this route a good few years ago???

All local trains will be either 3 or 4 car units offering a big jump in capacity... Though if the Anglia economy, and Cambridge City economy in particular, continues to perform well the extra capacity will soon be inadequate...
 
Last edited:

Class 170101

On Moderation
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
8,661
On the rural side...

Sudbury - Most trains are planned to operate through to Colchester Town, hopefully given the new units are bi-mode the services will be combined with the existing Colchester -Walton-on-the-Naze local service...

I hope Greater Anglia use the bi-modes to improve off wire services and through links to London rather than being used under the wires all the time.

Felixstowe - I would suggest that the branch is largely given over to freight off peak and busstituted to save a lot of money providing new infrastructure for the growing container traffic...

Whilst I can see the argument for this. I disagree. Hutchinson Ports have not yet carried out their Section 106 obligations (lawyers or otherwise) so I would not be willing to give off peak capacity to Containers and cancel the passenger train without Hutchinson Ports spending the money on the Section 106 agreements first.

East Suffolk Line - Whilst there's an extra morning Ipswich-Lowestoft service planned, with a bit of timetable tweaking an extra PM peak hour Ipswich-Saxmundham service could operate... There are already 0744, 0809 & 0857 Ipswich arrivals yet only 1554, 1717 and 1817 departures... It's about 20 minutes from Woodbridge to Saxmundham so with a bit of tweaking 3 trains in total in the Peak hour could be squeezed in like they do in the morning.. It may mean stabling the unit on the Leiston branch for a while until you can get it back to Ipswich... I don't think the freight operates to Leiston any more...
The gap betwen 15:54 and 17:17 reflects traffic on both the Felixstowe line and the need to provide a path from Sizewell for this traffic.

Ipswich-Cambridge - An extra peak hour arrival in to Cambridge is already proposed (one assumes 0720 Ipswich-Cambridge) but sadly nothing in the evening peak from Cambridge... Again with a bit of tweaking the existing infrastructure would allow a 1700ish Cambridge-Ipswich (passing at Dullingham) to operate... Ridership on this line has rocketed since it went hourly about a decade ago... Should new stations ever get built at Fulbourne/Cherry Hinton then an extra loop and a half hourly service will be needed... And to think that about 15 years ago there were some 3 hour gaps in the single car 153 operated service!!!
I think the extra service should be provided in the evening peak as you suggest and I couldn't see why it wouldn't be as it could lead to unbalanced workings. However I would also be using some of the bi-modes to extend a few services daily to / from London to provide direct services.

Ipswich-Peterborough - Service is proposed to go hourly and be extended to/from Colchester... Given the increasing container traffic, more cross London container services being routed this way, the lack of loops capable of holding a full length container train and the constraints of Ely North Junction which is already at nearly full capacity, the 5 miles of single track Ely to Soham, and the absolute block sections Ely to Peterborough which limit capacity, I have my doubts whether this service will be able to be pathed or operated reliably...
I think an hourly service can be provided but I do not believe it can be a standard hourly pattern with the infrastructure as it stands today. There will be some shorter an longer gaps such as to provide paths for freight, particularly Class 6 Freight.

Cambridge-Norwich - Service proposed to be extended through to Stansted airport but again no extra peak hour services into and out of Cambridge... Again with the propsed Stansted-Stratford service meaning 14 trains each hour through the single track tunnel at Stansted I expect reliability will not be as good as the existing Cambridge-Norwich service...
The only way that has any hope of succeeding would be 2 trains out and then 2 in, in succession and then repeat the pattern. A maximum of 16 paths an hour. I agree it's not reliable but it is likely to fix the timetable on too many points with Stansted Airport tunnel, Stansted North curve, Ely North Jn, Trowse Swing Bridge and the single lead onto the Cambridge line at Trowse Jn plus the single line sections to Kings Lynn. As with the Ipswich to Cambridge service I would be surprised if an additional peak service wasn't provided from Norwich to Cambridge in the morning and return in the evening. I hope it goes to / from London too.

Lowestoft/Gt Yarmouth-Norwich - I would like to see both routes have a half hourly peak hour service and half hourly summer service on the Gt Yarmouth route...

Sheringham Line - Would like to see at least an extra peak hour service, which can be done with the existing infrastructure... Or ideally half hourly all day as far as North Walsham... Extra summer services are already needed on the route... Wasn't a new town (garden city type thing) proposed near this route a good few years ago???
All local trains will be either 3 or 4 car units offering a big jump in capacity... Though if the Anglia economy, and Cambridge City economy in particular, continues to perform well the extra capacity will soon be inadequate...

The route to Great Yarmouth already has a half hourly service in high summer, however quite frankly it doesn't warrant it the rest of the year save for perhaps an extra working during the morning and evening peaks grankly the load isn't there as the bus viewed as a better mode of transport with a similar journey time into the heart of Norwich. Similar for Lowestoft and Sheringham. If the capacity is needed the new trains should cover this as you note above.
The new station proposed on the Sheringham line I believe is proposed at Rackheath but realistically I do not think it will generate much train demand as its too close to Norwich. The bus is likely to be busier than the train.
 

sk688

Member
Joined
11 Sep 2016
Messages
847
Location
Dublin
I don't know if it can be done or not, but London Norwich via Cambridge , fast to Sfecenage/Cambridge and then replacing current services, although DEMUs would be required.

I think it's good as it gives stations on the line a direct train to London, something stations East of Kings Lynn lack. Maybe this could be extended as a Lowestoft service (in the peaks maybe)

Terminus KGX or LST ( LST would require the service to reach the service via the WAML, so wouldn't serve GN stations) although it could be argued GN doesn't need it and it should go via West Anglia, as Thameslink will come on GN routes
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
Cambridge-Norwich - Service proposed to be extended through to Stansted airport but again no extra peak hour services into and out of Cambridge... Again with the propsed Stansted-Stratford service meaning 14 trains each hour through the single track tunnel at Stansted I expect reliability will not be as good as the existing Cambridge-Norwich service...

What is this proposed Stansted-Stratford service of which you speak? When was it proposed, and by who?
 

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
11,142
Location
Redcar
Personally, I don't recall reading anything about it when Abellio was announced as the winning bidder. Not sure where it has come from?

No, the person you quoted is proposing it.

The thread title is 'What would you do?'
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
No, the person you quoted is proposing it.

The thread title is 'What would you do?'

No, it just says "the proposed Stratford-Stansted service", with no previous reference in what he/she has written.
 

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
11,142
Location
Redcar
No, it just says "the proposed Stratford-Stansted service", with no previous reference in what he/she has written.

Ah, I get you now.

Although I still think it's part of their own thoughts, happy to be proven wrong!
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
2,043
What is this proposed Stansted-Stratford service of which you speak? When was it proposed, and by who?

Apologies, it seems I am mistaken.. I seem to recall reading about it but despite Googling it nothing comes it... I must be losing my marbles!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...and the need to provide a path from Sizewell for this traffic...

Does this actually run now though??? I thought it had ceased about a year ago...
 

AlanFry1

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2011
Messages
662
Calling the rush hour hertford east services at White Hart Lane which is now one of the busiest stations in North East London (Not inc underground).

Doubling the fasts on the Seven Sisters line, with two Cambridge slows diverted onto this route. Calling at Hackney Downs, SVS, WHL, Edmonton Green and so on.

Re-instate the fasts for Southbury, Turkey St and Theobolds Grove on weekends.

For the GEML
4TPH for Southend line services from LST
1TPH to Southminster from LST
2TPH to Clacton, one fast one slow
4TPH to Norwich, One fast to Ipswich, One fast to Colchester and two semi fast.
(No more Ipswich slows)
1TPH to Harwich Tn
2TPH to Braintree with double tracking relevant and needed.
2TPH to Colchester Town.

A better service for Romford! Please.

START GIVING NORTHUMBERLAND PARK A SUNDAY SERVICE. There is a demand.
Plus the 1tph is useless at the moment. Its causing chaos at WHL and Bruce Grove.

1TPH that goes to Kings Lynn in the peak NOT calling at Tottenham Hale, but all stations from Elsenham.

Broxbourne and Harlow Town getting a better service.

SO MANY CHANGES NEEDED.
 
Joined
10 Mar 2015
Messages
771
Construction of Sizewell C may well have a large impact on the East Suffolk line. EDF wish to run five freight trains a day to the site, where there is currently only a path for one. The suggestion is that they will pay for redoubling south of Saxmundham or a loop at Wickham Market.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
19,874
Location
East Anglia
Construction of Sizewell C may well have a large impact on the East Suffolk line. EDF wish to run five freight trains a day to the site, where there is currently only a path for one. The suggestion is that they will pay for redoubling south of Saxmundham or a loop at Wickham Market.

My money is on a loop at Wickham. Been mooted for around 10yrs now.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
22,796
Location
West of Andover
Calling the rush hour hertford east services at White Hart Lane which is now one of the busiest stations in North East London (Not inc underground).

Doubling the fasts on the Seven Sisters line, with two Cambridge slows diverted onto this route. Calling at Hackney Downs, SVS, WHL, Edmonton Green and so on.

Re-instate the fasts for Southbury, Turkey St and Theobolds Grove on weekends.

For the GEML
4TPH for Southend line services from LST
1TPH to Southminster from LST
2TPH to Clacton, one fast one slow
4TPH to Norwich, One fast to Ipswich, One fast to Colchester and two semi fast.
(No more Ipswich slows)
1TPH to Harwich Tn
2TPH to Braintree with double tracking relevant and needed.
2TPH to Colchester Town.

A better service for Romford! Please.

START GIVING NORTHUMBERLAND PARK A SUNDAY SERVICE. There is a demand.
Plus the 1tph is useless at the moment. Its causing chaos at WHL and Bruce Grove.

1TPH that goes to Kings Lynn in the peak NOT calling at Tottenham Hale, but all stations from Elsenham.

Broxbourne and Harlow Town getting a better service.

SO MANY CHANGES NEEDED.

The problem with doubling the fasts via Seven Sisters is those fasts will soon catch up with the all-station LO services. Similarly calling the certain fast services at a mild station would cause congestion down the track.
 
Last edited:
Joined
10 Mar 2015
Messages
771
My money is on a loop at Wickham. Been mooted for around 10yrs now.

I'm with you, but given the preexisting doubled infrastructure I wouldn't be shocked if they went for the whole whammy, might help sell the project to the locals.
 

Alfie1014

Established Member
Joined
27 Jun 2012
Messages
1,205
Location
Essex
Calling the rush hour hertford east services at White Hart Lane which is now one of the busiest stations in North East London (Not inc underground).

Doubling the fasts on the Seven Sisters line, with two Cambridge slows diverted onto this route. Calling at Hackney Downs, SVS, WHL, Edmonton Green and so on.

Re-instate the fasts for Southbury, Turkey St and Theobolds Grove on weekends.

For the GEML
4TPH for Southend line services from LST
1TPH to Southminster from LST
2TPH to Clacton, one fast one slow
4TPH to Norwich, One fast to Ipswich, One fast to Colchester and two semi fast.
(No more Ipswich slows)
1TPH to Harwich Tn
2TPH to Braintree with double tracking relevant and needed.
2TPH to Colchester Town.

A better service for Romford! Please.

START GIVING NORTHUMBERLAND PARK A SUNDAY SERVICE. There is a demand.
Plus the 1tph is useless at the moment. Its causing chaos at WHL and Bruce Grove.

1TPH that goes to Kings Lynn in the peak NOT calling at Tottenham Hale, but all stations from Elsenham.

Broxbourne and Harlow Town getting a better service.

SO MANY CHANGES NEEDED.

Good luck fitting in 16tph plus 2 freights without major investment in the infrastructure between Shenfield and Colchester. It's a bit academic anyway as the franchise spec off peak commits to 10tph from 2019, 3 x Norwich, 1 x Clacton, 1x Colchester/Town, 1 x Braintree, 4 x Southend Vic again plus the 2 freight paths per hour. New loops north of Witham which I think is NRs plan will help though maybe not for the Braintree branch. A new station at Beaulieu Park (north of Chelmsford) again could help but only if it provided with loops, the cost of which has stymied the project for the last 15 years or so. In respect of Romford the franchise spec is for none from 2019 again presumably due to lack of line capacity on the Main Lines and the fact that Crossrail frequencies on the Electric Lines will be higher than today.

Some quick wins in my view would be a doubling of the local service on the Clacton branch where line capacity is not a problem and would help improve the service at the villages along the line all of which have got new housing development planned in the next few years. A Sunday service on this route serving Colchester Town surely must be a must in this day and age, how many other town centre stations are now not served on the second busiest shopping day of the week?

And I agree with TheBigD that the bi-modes would be ideal for the local services to Clacton/Walton as even the short Aventras will be the equivalant of a 6 car 20m conventional EMU, where as 3/4 cars would much better match demand.

I also wonder how the Aventras at 24m will cope on the tight curves in and out of Colchester Town where 23m stock aren't currently cleared. And yes I recognise that just because they aren't cleared doesn't mean they can't be, but even so the west curve in particular is incredibly tight, restricted to 15mph I look forward to seeing the first new train from Derby squealing around it!
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
2,043
...A Sunday service on this route serving Colchester Town surely must be a must in this day and age, how many other town centre stations are now not served on the second busiest shopping day of the week...

The rail industry is still years behind society with regard to Sunday provision... Progress is being made though it's slow...

Not a Greater Anglia service (EMT) but look at Norwich-Peterborough on a Sunday... First train at 1047, then a 3 hour gap until 1349... In the reverse direction first train is at 1340... First train Peterborough-Stansted (XC) is at 1318... Both routes are open 24/7 unlike a number of routes whose signalboxes have limited opening hours...
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
Class 170101 said:
The only way that has any hope of succeeding would be 2 trains out and then 2 in, in succession and then repeat the pattern. A maximum of 16 paths an hour. I agree it's not reliable but it is likely to fix the timetable on too many points with Stansted Airport tunnel, Stansted North curve, Ely North Jn, Trowse Swing Bridge and the single lead onto the Cambridge line at Trowse Jn plus the single line sections to Kings Lynn. As with the Ipswich to Cambridge service I would be surprised if an additional peak service wasn't provided from Norwich to Cambridge in the morning and return in the evening. I hope it goes to / from London too.

Defintely won't get 8tph both in and out of Stansted. The hourly XC knocks out Platform 2 most of the hour (for a robust turnround and break for the train crew), so only got 2 platforms left to play with.

Two trains coming in in succession would have to be 3 minutes apart. But the first of these would have to depart back the very second the second arrives off the single line (in order to get back to the London end of the single line* for the next pair to arrive 15 minutes later), and the second right behind that. I.e. at least 7 x 3 minute turnrounds every hour - not workable or robust.

*From departure at Stansted, to clearing the single line at Stansted to the next artival into the same platform is an absolute minimum of 9 minutes:
3.5 minutes Stansted to Tye Green
2 minutes single line reoccupation at Tye Green
3.5 minutes Tye Green to Stansted
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
1TPH that goes to Kings Lynn in the peak NOT calling at Tottenham Hale, but all stations from Elsenham.

.

As a regular on the King's Lynn/Cambridge peak fasts, they already routinely catch up the preceding Broxbourne stopper around Enfield Lock/Waltham Cross. Taking the stop at the 'Hale out will just mean catching up even sooner (so no actual journey time benefit)

Plus the Down platform at Totty Hale gets very busy in tbe evening peak - running a fast train through it at ~60mph will be....interesting. Plus, as a 12-car it neatly mops up alot of people from the platform in the process.
 

TheBigD

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2008
Messages
2,043
The Anglia Route Study...

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Anglia-Route-Study-UPDATED-1.pdf

There are a number of sections throughout the document detailing the Ely area and possible solutions to constraints etc but this caught my eye....

On page 68 it states...

"...In CP6, the first constraint to delivering any increase in freight and passenger capacity over the route is Ely level crossings (Queen Adelaide and Kiln Lane). Without addressing this, no further increase in capacity is possible over and above currently available paths..."

Firstly, how does Greater Anglia plan to get around this and double the Ipswich-Peterborough service to hourly when Network Rail have publicly stated that no further paths will be available???

Secondly, does anyone know what is proposed/decided for the Ely area, what stage is it (or not) in the GRIP process and when will it be delivered???
 

Z12XE

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2005
Messages
876
I also wonder how the Aventras at 24m will cope on the tight curves in and out of Colchester Town where 23m stock aren't currently cleared.

Class 156s are cleared to Colchester Town but prohibited from using the last 20 meters of the platform.

I guess the last time they went that way though was when the fresh air express last ran in 1994.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,214
Class 156s are cleared to Colchester Town but prohibited from using the last 20 meters of the platform.

I guess the last time they went that way though was when the fresh air express last ran in 1994.

I'm intrigued; can you enlighten me on what the 'fresh air express' was?
 

TheEdge

Established Member
Joined
29 Nov 2012
Messages
4,498
Location
Norwich
Construction of Sizewell C may well have a large impact on the East Suffolk line. EDF wish to run five freight trains a day to the site, where there is currently only a path for one. The suggestion is that they will pay for redoubling south of Saxmundham or a loop at Wickham Market.

The version I've heard is when the ESL was re-signalled the right "gaps" were left at Wickham Market that means to install a loop is just a matter of laying the track and dropping the signals in.
 

AlanFry1

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2011
Messages
662
The problem with doubling the fasts via Seven Sisters is those fasts will soon catch up with the all-station LO services. Similarly calling the certain fast services at a mild station would cause congestion down the track.

It depends however, as I think if a more attractive service to Liverpool St existed (as before the dec 11 timetable change where Bruce Grove, WHL and Silver St lost their fasts) the Victoria line would be nowhere near congested. At present its probably not much longer to take a Victoria Line into Kings Cross and then take a circle into LST.

I just hope that Hackney Downs as an interchange is taken into account even if the station can only accommodate 9 car trains. Also take into account 3 new platforms due to be built at LST so there is no more excuse of a lack of platform capacity.
Good luck fitting in 16tph plus 2 freights without major investment in the infrastructure between Shenfield and Colchester. It's a bit academic anyway as the franchise spec off peak commits to 10tph from 2019, 3 x Norwich, 1 x Clacton, 1x Colchester/Town, 1 x Braintree, 4 x Southend Vic again plus the 2 freight paths per hour. New loops north of Witham which I think is NRs plan will help though maybe not for the Braintree branch. A new station at Beaulieu Park (north of Chelmsford) again could help but only if it provided with loops, the cost of which has stymied the project for the last 15 years or so. In respect of Romford the franchise spec is for none from 2019 again presumably due to lack of line capacity on the Main Lines and the fact that Crossrail frequencies on the Electric Lines will be higher than today.

Some quick wins in my view would be a doubling of the local service on the Clacton branch where line capacity is not a problem and would help improve the service at the villages along the line all of which have got new housing development planned in the next few years. A Sunday service on this route serving Colchester Town surely must be a must in this day and age, how many other town centre stations are now not served on the second busiest shopping day of the week?

And I agree with TheBigD that the bi-modes would be ideal for the local services to Clacton/Walton as even the short Aventras will be the equivalant of a 6 car 20m conventional EMU, where as 3/4 cars would much better match demand.

I also wonder how the Aventras at 24m will cope on the tight curves in and out of Colchester Town where 23m stock aren't currently cleared. And yes I recognise that just because they aren't cleared doesn't mean they can't be, but even so the west curve in particular is incredibly tight, restricted to 15mph I look forward to seeing the first new train from Derby squealing around it!

Isn't the GEML being four tracked between Witham and Chelmsford North or am I seeing things? And I didn't think freight runs in the peak I may be wrong though.
 

sjoh

Member
Joined
7 Apr 2016
Messages
372
Location
London, E11.
Also take into account 3 new platforms due to be built at LST so there is no more excuse of a lack of platform capacity.

Which 3 are these? I was under the impression that post Crossrail Liverpool Street high level is actually losing a platform to enable the other 2 to be lengthened? (referring of course here to 16/17/18)

Could be wrong though!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top