Greater Anglia Timetable: What would you do?

[AlanFry1]

Which 3 are these? I was under the impression that post Crossrail Liverpool Street high level is actually losing a platform to enable the other 2 to be lengthened? (referring of course here to 16/17/18)

Could be wrong though!

I'll send the link if I can find it but apparently, where the Toni and Guy, Boots, Moonsoon (underneath the Broad St complex) all of that COULD be made way for new platforms. (3).

And two/four of the units on that side now have been permanently shut, so something could be imminent. There is space for new tracks and this is clearly evident if you ever catch a train between platforms 1-3 at LST and look at your left as soon as you leave the platform. (Abeit major waterloo style construction)

 

[PeterC]

Which 3 are these? I was under the impression that post Crossrail Liverpool Street high level is actually losing a platform to enable the other 2 to be lengthened? (referring of course here to 16/17/18)

Could be wrong though!

I haven't followed this closely but that was my understanding too.

 

[NSE]

I'll send the link if I can find it but apparently, where the Toni and Guy, Boots, Moonsoon (underneath the Broad St complex) all of that COULD be made way for new platforms. (3).

Could?
Thameslink could run every day with out delays
National Rail could demolish all London termini and make one mega super London station
Arsenal could win the League, FA Cup and Champions League this season

Many things could happen. As it goes, I'm with everyone else, I've heard Liverpool will be gaining two platforms downstairs for Crossrail, and losing one up top for platform extensions. Though that will be an increase in capacity as 16/17/18 will no longer have so many Shenfield metros turning there.

 

[dk1]

I'll send the link if I can find it but apparently, where the Toni and Guy, Boots, Moonsoon (underneath the Broad St complex) all of that COULD be made way for new platforms. (3).

And two/four of the units on that side now have been permanently shut, so something could be imminent. There is space for new tracks and this is clearly evident if you ever catch a train between platforms 1-3 at LST and look at your left as soon as you leave the platform. (Abeit major waterloo style construction)

What you are referring to is an absolutely massive undertaking & something that I have never heard of. As said, platforms 17/18 will be altered/abolished but that's it.

 

[AlanFry1]

I think it was Rail Magazine UK

 

[Alfie1014]

It depends however, as I think if a more attractive service to Liverpool St existed (as before the dec 11 timetable change where Bruce Grove, WHL and Silver St lost their fasts) the Victoria line would be nowhere near congested. At present its probably not much longer to take a Victoria Line into Kings Cross and then take a circle into LST.

I just hope that Hackney Downs as an interchange is taken into account even if the station can only accommodate 9 car trains. Also take into account 3 new platforms due to be built at LST so there is no more excuse of a lack of platform capacity.

Isn't the GEML being four tracked between Witham and Chelmsford North or am I seeing things? And I didn't think freight runs in the peak I may be wrong though.

Nope there are suggestions that some additional 4 tracking or loops might be installed at some point in the future but nothing is agreed or funded at thie moment. And yes frieghts don't generally run in the peak, but the passenger service on the main lines is more frequent as a result up to 22tph in the direction of the peak.

The only defined schemes on the GEML that are in NR's enhancement plans at the moment are the lengthening of platforms 16 and 17 (to 240m I assume) and the consequential loss of platform 18, power supply enhancements and a CP6 scheme to remodel Bow Junction to allow ML services to access the highest numnbered platforms from the EL once most Shenfield services have been diverted through the Crossrail tunnels post 2019, this should allow an extra three ML services into the station in the peak.

The additional platform scheme (not funded) is for the provision of two new platforms between 10 and 11 (the former cab/mail area) where ironically the new ticket office and other station facilities have recently been/ or soon to be relocated.

 

[sjoh]

More platform capacity viable or not, I thought the the main constraint at LST - during the peaks at least - was line capacity into the station? Whilst Crossrail will alleviate this on the GEML from Bow, I don't see how that helps all that much given that you've still got to squeeze anything extra onto the mains beyond Bow. Even then, does it do anything to help West Anglia routes? I wouldn't have thought much if anything...

btw WHL did you find the link?

 

[dk1]

Work by British Land at Broadgate is purely retail/office...

http://www.broadgate.co.uk/News/Detail/1339

 

[AlanFry1]

More platform capacity viable or not, I thought the the main constraint at LST - during the peaks at least - was line capacity into the station? Whilst Crossrail will alleviate this on the GEML from Bow, I don't see how that helps all that much given that you've still got to squeeze anything extra onto the mains beyond Bow. Even then, does it do anything to help West Anglia routes? I wouldn't have thought much if anything...

btw WHL did you find the link?

Nope sorry, I know it was Rail Magazine UK and it was posted sometime across the last 24 months but I was scouring for it this morning and no luck. If I find it I will let you know.

 

[AlanFry1]

To be fair capacity at Lst is a pain and rubbish, Stansted express trains don't need to be in the platforms almost twenty minutes in at rush hour and the Norwich express's are there often for over 30 minutes. If turn around times were similar to those at waterloo in the new timetable (only seen with the London overground services here at present with a 7 minute turn around which could still be slightly improved if needed) Liverpool street platform 18 or not shouldn't have any issues at all. Yes the concourse is small but you'd also have to remember better train services would be expected.

Also, the new 710 order isn't very forward thinking considering London Overground use a lot of abellio stock in the peak, and the 710 order is nowhere near enough to cover the extras?

 

[DasLunatic]

As of right now, the Main lines from Stratford to Shenfield sees nine passenger trains and two or three freights during a standard off-peak hour each way.

To start, I would attempt to squeeze a tenth (and possibly eleventh) off-peak train in, allowing a five-minute headway between trains on this part of the line.

The two freights would be ran as normal, possibly switching to the Electrics at Ilford if Crossrail timings permit. However, for simplicity, I'll assume they stay on the Mains.

-Southend will keep operating at 3tph from London, but to keep speeds, all Romford calls will be removed. Crossrail should be able to take the slack.
-The two single branches (Colchester Town and Braintree) will also keep their hourly service. If Braintree is rebuilt to become a two-platform station, service will be 2tph. Again, Romford calls will be removed.
-Clacton remains as usual. No changes.
- An hourly service from London to Harwich Town will be added, using the tenth path unless the aforementioned Braintree change happens. It'll call Stratford, Shenfield, Chemsford, Witham and all shacks to Harwich after Witham.

The big change will be with the Ipswich and Norwich trains. These three will go all the way to Norwich. Two will be expresses (calling Chelmsford, Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich, Stowmarket (1tph), Diss and Norwich), and the third will take the Ipswich train's path. An extra stop will also be added at Needham Market to give the station a needed direct train to London.

Someone else can rebuild the WAML...

 

[AlanFry1]

As of right now, the Main lines from Stratford to Shenfield sees nine passenger trains and two or three freights during a standard off-peak hour each way.

To start, I would attempt to squeeze a tenth (and possibly eleventh) off-peak train in, allowing a five-minute headway between trains on this part of the line.

The two freights would be ran as normal, possibly switching to the Electrics at Ilford if Crossrail timings permit. However, for simplicity, I'll assume they stay on the Mains.

-Southend will keep operating at 3tph from London, but to keep speeds, all Romford calls will be removed. Crossrail should be able to take the slack.
-The two single branches (Colchester Town and Braintree) will also keep their hourly service. If Braintree is rebuilt to become a two-platform station, service will be 2tph. Again, Romford calls will be removed.
-Clacton remains as usual. No changes.
- An hourly service from London to Harwich Town will be added, using the tenth path unless the aforementioned Braintree change happens. It'll call Stratford, Shenfield, Chemsford, Witham and all shacks to Harwich after Witham.

The big change will be with the Ipswich and Norwich trains. These three will go all the way to Norwich. Two will be expresses (calling Chelmsford, Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich, Stowmarket (1tph), Diss and Norwich), and the third will take the Ipswich train's path. An extra stop will also be added at Needham Market to give the station a needed direct train to London.

Someone else can rebuild the WAML...

Not stopping off peak services at Romford is silly. Shenfield doesn't justify the service it gets, Romford is the busiest station on the GEML after Stratford and Chelmsford.

 

[dk1]

Not stopping off peak services at Romford is silly. Shenfield doesn't justify the service it gets, Romford is the busiest station on the GEML after Stratford and Chelmsford.

And it's where the ROC is located. There will always be stops where it assists rail employees get to/from work especially when it involves GA control etc.

 

[MatthewRead]

Why can't they just reinstate the direct services to Lowestoft now most passengers don't want to have to wait until the new stock arrives!

 

[dk1]

Why can't they just reinstate the direct services to Lowestoft now most passengers don't want to have to wait until the new stock arrives!

Where would you get the stock to reinstate them from?

 

[AlanFry1]

Why can't they just reinstate the direct services to Lowestoft now most passengers don't want to have to wait until the new stock arrives!

Because that doesn't maximise capacity anywhere.

 

[bramling]

Why can't they just reinstate the direct services to Lowestoft now most passengers don't want to have to wait until the new stock arrives!

They could, but the consequence would be:

1) 3-car units all the way to London, so gross overcrowding.

2) The extra DMUs required would have to come from somewhere, so the timetable would have to be trimmed back somewhere else. Meanwhile there are sufficient 321s available.

I'd prefer a change if it means I can have a spacious journey to London.

 

[Ianno87]

To be fair capacity at Lst is a pain and rubbish, Stansted express trains don't need to be in the platforms almost twenty minutes in at rush hour and the Norwich express's are there often for over 30 minutes. If turn around times were similar to those at waterloo in the new timetable (only seen with the London overground services here at present with a 7 minute turn around which could still be slightly improved if needed) Liverpool street platform 18 or not shouldn't have any issues at all. Yes the concourse is small but you'd also have to remember better train services would be expected.

Also, the new 710 order isn't very forward thinking considering London Overground use a lot of abellio stock in the peak, and the 710 order is nowhere near enough to cover the extras?

On the West Anglia side, the 7 platforms used at Liverpool St aren't the constraint. It is the two track approach from Bethnal Green and the station throat that limit the maximum train service to 22tph. This is why the Stansteds can sit around for so long without issue. Extra platforms in isolation wouldn't create any extra train paths.

(Also, having the Stansteds sitting around and ready to board at least gets the large numbers of passengers encumbered with luggage off the concourse to reduce congestion)

 

[louis97]

Also, the new 710 order isn't very forward thinking considering London Overground use a lot of abellio stock in the peak, and the 710 order is nowhere near enough to cover the extras?

On a weekday service LO have 26 4-car trains diagrammed, this includes all peak extras so not all of these 26 sets are used all day. They currently have 31 4-car trains, and will have 31 Class 710s 4-car trains as a replacement.

 

[87015]

On a weekday service LO have 26 4-car trains diagrammed, this includes all peak extras so not all of these 26 sets are used all day. They currently have 31 4-car trains, and will have 31 Class 710s 4-car trains as a replacement.

No it doesn't 3xAGA units are used in addition to the LO 315/317s.

 

[MatthewRead]

They could, but the consequence would be:

1) 3-car units all the way to London, so gross overcrowding.

2) The extra DMUs required would have to come from somewhere, so the timetable would have to be trimmed back somewhere else. Meanwhile there are sufficient 321s available.

I'd prefer a change if it means I can have a spacious journey to London.

Not if they had a relief service running additionally and also what about Angel Road could have sworn I read that was going to get a shuttle service from 2017.

 

[43074]

Not if they had a relief service running additionally...

A relief service which soaks up more capacity than they can afford to, everyone's far better off if they run 8- or even 12-car 321s from Ipswich with a connecting DMU from the East Suffolk than running 3-car 170s through to London.

 

[306024]

On the West Anglia side, the 7 platforms used at Liverpool St aren't the constraint. It is the two track approach from Bethnal Green and the station throat that limit the maximum train service to 22tph. This is why the Stansteds can sit around for so long without issue. Extra platforms in isolation wouldn't create any extra train paths.

(Also, having the Stansteds sitting around and ready to board at least gets the large numbers of passengers encumbered with luggage off the concourse to reduce congestion)

Exactly, glad someone gets it. The same principle applies on the GE side. Liverpool St station concourse is quite small for the volumes of people it handles so using the train as the waiting room makes perfect sense, and ensures turnround times are maximised for performance reasons.

 

[306024]

Not if they had a relief service running additionally......

That is precisely what ended up happening on Saturdays before December 2010, as a 3 car 170 was hopeless to cope with the number of passengers between Colchester and Liverpool St. Doubled the operating cost at a stroke.

 

[AlanFry1]

Not if they had a relief service running additionally and also what about Angel Road could have sworn I read that was going to get a shuttle service from 2017.

Angel Road isn't going to be open for many more years anyways, its being moved even closer to Northumberland park and re-named meridian water

 

[AlanFry1]

Exactly, glad someone gets it. The same principle applies on the GE side. Liverpool St station concourse is quite small for the volumes of people it handles so using the train as the waiting room makes perfect sense, and ensures turnround times are maximised for performance reasons.

But a better train service as well as crossrail will mean there wont be as many people on the main concourse when this new timetable comes into play

 

[MatthewRead]

That is precisely what ended up happening on Saturdays before December 2010, as a 3 car 170 was hopeless to cope with the number of passengers between Colchester and Liverpool St. Doubled the operating cost at a stroke.

Then couldn't the 170s operate as 5 or 6 car formations to provide more capacity or is that not possible?

 

[Kite159]

Then couldn't the 170s operate as 5 or 6 car formations to provide more capacity or is that not possible?

GA only have 8x 3-car 170s and 4x 2-car 170s.

They haven't got the spare DMUs available to send on a jolly to London for the tiny number of passengers demanding a through service

 

[dk1]

GA only have 8x 3-car 170s and 4x 2-car 170s.

They haven't got the spare DMUs available to send on a jolly to London for the tiny number of passengers demanding a through service

To be honest, there are often in excess of 50 passengers requiring an East Suffolk connection to/from London & yes this would probably be enhanced had they been continued (even though only 2-hourly then) but the simple case as you say is not enough of the required rolling stock. Any spare capacity in the DMU fleet at GA has long since been used up enhancing other routes.

Not a thing will change until the new units arrive in 2019/20 & whether this is above the 4 direct services committed, remains to be seen.

 

[TheBigD]

The through services are supposed to start in May 2019...

Is it 4 services in total, eg, 2 services each way, or is it 4 services each way???