Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Bletchleyite]

I agree

FWIW that's why I was very disappointed Northern didn't order new bi-modes like the East Anglia FLIRTs, which would have worked very well. But a well-refurbished D319 (think Renatus) would easily meet the Northern Connect spec.

I know not everyone likes that specific seat (let's not turn it into a seat debate again ), but something like this...

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5772/30975575196_cbd77414df_b.jpg (picture of 2+2 interior of Renatus 321, too big to include inline)

Actually, if the Renatus 321s come available at the right time, that'd save a refurb! And 321s seem more reliable than 319s but are otherwise near-identical.

 

[Elecman]

Once again I agree Renatus 321s should be on Northerns wish list.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

FWIW that's why I was very disappointed Northern didn't order new bi-modes like the East Anglia FLIRTs, which would have worked very well. But a well-refurbished D319 (think Renatus) would easily meet the Northern Connect spec.

I know not everyone likes that specific seat (let's not turn it into a seat debate again ), but something like this...

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5772/30975575196_cbd77414df_b.jpg (picture of 2+2 interior of Renatus 321, too big to include inline)

Actually, if the Renatus 321s come available at the right time, that'd save a refurb! And 321s seem more reliable than 319s but are otherwise near-identical.

Once again I agree Renatus 321s should be on Northerns wish list.

If the assumptions that the 319 flex will use the wiring from the shoegear are correct, a similar "321 flex" would be more tricky. Additionally, Northern plan to dispense with 321/322s in the next few years, though crew knowledge won't be an issue either way as the 321s are Yorkshire units rather than Northwest ones.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Any info on progress re the 319 at Brush or is it too early?

"Work starts in May" seems pretty clear.
No doubt design work is in progress.

 

[WatcherZero]

I understand design work has been completed, they are now at the prototyping stage working on how to install the conversion (e.g fixings and brackets).

 

[Roast Veg]

If only they had workshop tours - it can be tantalizing to pass the works on the MML and know what's going on inside sometimes.

 

[47802]

FWIW that's why I was very disappointed Northern didn't order new bi-modes like the East Anglia FLIRTs, which would have worked very well. But a well-refurbished D319 (think Renatus) would easily meet the Northern Connect spec.

I know not everyone likes that specific seat (let's not turn it into a seat debate again ), but something like this...

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5772/30975575196_cbd77414df_b.jpg (picture of 2+2 interior of Renatus 321, too big to include inline)

Actually, if the Renatus 321s come available at the right time, that'd save a refurb! And 321s seem more reliable than 319s but are otherwise near-identical.

By all accounts the flirt units are significantly more expensive, so it doesn't surprise me they got CAF DMU/EMU's at supposedly good price instead, and I think the number of 319 flex units given the also supposedly high price will be very limited on Northern eg possibly only the 8 initial units as indicated to effectively cover for the postponed Electrification Scheme's, but I guess it may depend on how well they work on diesel and the level of any DMU shortfall for Northern.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But a well-refurbished D319 (think Renatus) would easily meet the Northern Connect spec.

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but in the matter of D319 (which was later renumbered 40119), it was withdrawn from service on 14th December 1980.

To further dash your hopes of giving any type of refurbishment to it, it was then cut up at Swindon locomotive works on 1st October 1982, some 34 years ago...:roll:

 

[deltic08]

Anyone got any further idea as to where these are going to be used?

Leeds-Lancaster/Morecambe/Ribblehead and Metrocentre-Morpeth/Chathill could do with a couple.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Leeds-Lancaster/Morecambe/Ribblehead and Metrocentre-Morpeth/Chathill could do with a couple.

Lots of speculation on here. Beyond Skipton both the Settle and Carnforth lines are less than flat, as are some of the other routes speculated about. Is there any indication yet of how much diesel power will be installed? Carnforth to Barrow is pretty undemanding but what of the other suggested routes? Even Kendal to Oxenholme is a drag.

Either way the delays in electrification and cascades of stock must have made re-planning of the Northern franchise both allowable and essential. There are loads of services where ridership, indeed even revenue protection must be limited purely by capacity. Anything that makes more capacity affordable in Northern is exciting and frankly tables and aircon are small beer.

(Gets out crayons...) Swanage to beyond Wareham? North Downs? Brighton to Ashford? Halton?

 

[1179_Clee2]

I understand design work has been completed, they are now at the prototyping stage working on how to install the conversion (e.g fixings and brackets).

Much more complicated than that as when Porterbrook converted a Class 210 DTSO into a Class 455 MSO (67301) the sub floor and underframe had to be strengthened in order to hang all the heavy electrical equipment as trailer cars were never designed to hang stuff underneath.

 

[tbtc]

Leeds-Lancaster/Morecambe/Ribblehead and Metrocentre-Morpeth/Chathill could do with a couple.

Metrocentre-Morpeth/Chathill seems ideal for these trains.

The unelectrified sections are fairly short, which means that the technology would be first tested on a fairly forgiving line.

Much as I appreciate the enthusiasm for Barrow, that'd mean being "off wires" for a couple of hours at a time (given how slow the line is beyond Lancaster).

The Morpeth duties can't currently be pure-EMU operated (since BR didn't bother wiring the headshunt at Morpeth - and there's no realistic hope of setting up a team to do this frustratingly short section), but an EMU doing the current Newcastle - Metro Centre - Newcastle - Morpeth - Newcastle - Metro Centre - Newcastle diagram would spend 95% of it's time under the wires, so no great drain on engines for long periods.

Morpeth would be just big enough to suit a trial and could be split out of any interworking with other services (e.g. Carlisle duties), rather than the complexities of splitting up diagrams around Manchester/ Leeds.

It's fairly flat, it would mean keeping the trains relatively close to the depot (Morpeth - Heaton is only fifteen miles if something goes wrong, Metro Centre - Heaton is about five miles, so you'd not be dragging something back from rural Cumbria if something went belly-up).

It may also be good PR to give some new technology to the north east, given that they aren't getting 195s/ 331s under the new Northern franchise (the only "new" trains are going to be refurbished 158s).

Plus, upgrading the Morpeth trains from 75mph DMUs (142s/ 156s) to 100mph EMUs might be rather handy in terms of getting out of the way of VTEC/ XC services through Cramlington.

(I like the Airedale idea of using these trains to permit a peak-time Settle service as an extension of an existing Leeds - Skipton diagram, but I think that the first place they are tested should be relatively simple/ small-scale/ "quick win" - lets get the technology working before the crayons come out)

 

[59CosG95]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O64777/2017/01/17/advanced This may be of interest-apparently 1 or 2 319s have gone off lease and are Long Marston bound. Perhaps these'll be the test bed units for the Flex project? EDIT: They're just going off lease. Admin, feel free to delete.

 

[northwichcat]

possibly only the 8 initial units as indicated to effectively cover for the postponed Electrification Scheme's, but I guess it may depend on how well they work on diesel and the level of any DMU shortfall for Northern.

Indeed. Eight of the additional 12 x 319s which were already due to transfer to Northern will become bi-modes. That must mean the plan is to use them on routes which Arriva intended to use EMUs on in their franchise plan. Reported elsewhere the units being converted will be 319424, 319431, 319434, 319442, 319448, 319450, 319456 and 319458.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Much as I appreciate the enthusiasm for Barrow, that'd mean being "off wires" for a couple of hours at a time (given how slow the line is beyond Lancaster).

...

- lets get the technology working before the crayons come out)

Genuine question, why is 2 hours off the OHLE crucial? I had assumed that was exactly why the diesel engines were being installed, it is time limited? Could see that for a battery based solution. Sorry about the crayons BTW, but I do cram myself into the Furness Line services from time to time.

Oh and does anyone have a clue about installed power yet? Will they take to the hilly routes?

 

[notlob.divad]

Assuming the Blackpool branch gets its wires by May 2018, one place I could definitely see these working is the clc stopper. Assuming it continues to terminate at ORoad until the extra platforms are in at Piccadilly, it has electrified sections at both ends. And passes the depot where these are likely to be stored and maintained. If it wasn't for the Northern Connect standard requirements I would also suggest the airport express run on this route too as it would have a decent run on the wires at the Manchester end.

 

[ac6000cw]

Genuine question, why is 2 hours off the OHLE crucial? I had assumed that was exactly why the diesel engines were being installed, it is time limited? Could see that for a battery based solution. Sorry about the crayons BTW, but I do cram myself into the Furness Line services from time to time.

Don't forget that it's not just about finding space for the diesel engines - they need fuel tanks as well, which are the limiting factor for range on diesel power.

Fuel tank capacity *might* be limited in comparison to normal DMUs - it's the obvious thing to compromise on if there are space and weight limitations with hanging things under the 319 trailer cars.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Assuming the Blackpool branch gets its wires by May 2018, one place I could definitely see these working is the clc stopper. Assuming it continues to terminate at ORoad until the extra platforms are in at Piccadilly, it has electrified sections at both ends. And passes the depot where these are likely to be stored and maintained. If it wasn't for the Northern Connect standard requirements I would also suggest the airport express run on this route too as it would have a decent run on the wires at the Manchester end.

319s don't do "pan up/down" except when stationary.
So it might work when stopped at Liverpool South Parkway, but not passing Manchester United FG at speed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The CLC has a very high number of local stations, so would benefit from a very high-power DMU or electrification. If it would be possible to regear Class 185s to 80mph (say) they would suit it very well.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Don't forget that it's not just about finding space for the diesel engines - they need fuel tanks as well, which are the limiting factor for range on diesel power.

Fuel tank capacity *might* be limited in comparison to normal DMUs - it's the obvious thing to compromise on if there are space and weight limitations with hanging things under the 319 trailer cars.

Fuel I understand, but the post I was wondering about spoke of time because of the slow line speeds.

 

[Mordac]

Fuel I understand, but the post I was wondering about spoke of time because of the slow line speeds.

I think he just meant that the slow line speeds are what cause such a short distance trip to take so long.

 

[Roose]

Carnforth to Barrow is pretty undemanding

While Carnforth to Ulverston is pretty undemanding, Ulverston to Barrow features the humpback of Lindal Bank.

 

[superkev]

Don't forget that it's not just about finding space for the diesel engines - they need fuel tanks as well, which are the limiting factor for range on diesel power.

Fuel tank capacity *might* be limited in comparison to normal DMUs - it's the obvious thing to compromise on if there are space and weight limitations with hanging things under the 319 trailer cars.

And as well as the engine, cooling system and fuel there's the firewall and extiiguishing system. That's a lot of weight.
K

 

[deltic08]

And as well as the engine, cooling system and fuel there's the firewall and extiiguishing system. That's a lot of weight.
K

and of course carriage heating in Winter will make them slower off the wires if there are distances involved.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I suppose Brush has offered Porterbrook a reasonable solution from all these points of view as they are both businesses that depend on supplying good solutions. What I was wondering (a day or two ago) was how these units would manage on hilly routes or accelerate on stop - start routes. I've assumed the plan for these units is for routes where the bulk of the distance is electric but is that certain? The current Rail magazine (I know, combined volume, biro, duffle bag, thermos) speaks of high efficiency and of putting in more batteries to improve performance off electrified routes so I wonder if we are all in for a surprise.

 

[eastwestdivide]

If you want to put 2+2 together,
2. Certain bits of electrification are running late/deferred.
2. Eight of the EMUs for Northern's future electric services, allocated to Northern before the electrification delays were known, are having diesel engines added.

And also, 2+2+2,
2. Surely it makes sense to run a presumably expensive train (i.e. hauling around 2 sets of power equipment) on a route that makes the most of both.

I expect the answer's somewhere between 3.9 and 6.1, but I wouldn't place any bets.

 

[Mollman]

To throw my hat in the ring - how about Hazel Grove - Blackpool South (OK a loop would be needed for a half hourly Blackpool South service)

 

[Islineclear3_1]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O64777/2017/01/17/advanced This may be of interest-apparently 1 or 2 319s have gone off lease and are Long Marston bound. Perhaps these'll be the test bed units for the Flex project? EDIT: They're just going off lease. Admin, feel free to delete.

Any more info on these please, i.e. unit numbers? Thanks

 

[507021]

Any more info on these please, i.e. unit numbers? Thanks

I think it's 319427 and 319452.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I think it's 319427 and 319452.

Thanks very much - must be 452 as 427 went up a while ago and I haven't seen 452 for a long time, when still in FCC livery