Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[physics34]

I like the way the Blue Grey livery even manages to make what then would have been a new train look old, admittedly not helped by what appears to be peeling paint around the front windows.

would love blue grey to make a comeback to be honest!! It was neat and tidy!

 

[jopsuk]

I wonder if the 210 could have been more of a success if they had stuck with a 317 type motor carriage in the middle and put generator sets under the driving cars, as is being done to the 319?

 

[edwin_m]

I like the way the Blue Grey livery even manages to make what then would have been a new train look old, admittedly not helped by what appears to be peeling paint around the front windows.

The original series 317 (and hence the 210) had the feel of being cobbled together from bits of Mk3 and scrap metal found round the back of Derby works rather than actually designed. I think anyone not in the know would think a 313-315 unit was much newer. Later Mk3-based units made some visual improvements particularly to the front and the window design but features such as the window positions were less than ideal the whole way through.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's amazing how timeless the PEP design is compared with the slightly dated looking Mk3 one (particularly the 317 which has the most dating parts of the Mk3 interior such as the lighting strips and silver conduits/vents) - despite being as old as me, with a modern livery and new style interior the Merseyrail units really would pass as new.

Hopeless window alignment, but then that's true of a lot of stock.

 

[ac6000cw]

It's amazing how timeless the PEP design is compared with the slightly dated looking Mk3 one (particularly the 317 which has the most dating parts of the Mk3 interior such as the lighting strips and silver conduits/vents) - despite being as old as me, with a modern livery and new style interior the Merseyrail units really would pass as new.

I agree, and the Networker design also still looks modern - it's the 'in-between' Mk3 derived EMUs that seem to lack design integrity (I'm reminded of it every time I ride in a 317 versus a 365). AFAIK the Mk3 EMUs were cheaper to build than the PEP design...
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I wonder if the 210 could have been more of a success if they had stuck with a 317 type motor carriage in the middle and put generator sets under the driving cars, as is being done to the 319?

The genesis of the 210 was specifically to avoid using underfloor engines, after experience of maintaining the ones under the 1950s DMUs. Plus I suspect an electric transmission is more expensive than a mechanical transmission (at DMU power/torque levels at least) - which would have been a problem for the early 1980s cash-strapped BR.

 

[Mikey C]

It's amazing how timeless the PEP design is compared with the slightly dated looking Mk3 one (particularly the 317 which has the most dating parts of the Mk3 interior such as the lighting strips and silver conduits/vents) - despite being as old as me, with a modern livery and new style interior the Merseyrail units really would pass as new.

Hopeless window alignment, but then that's true of a lot of stock.

The refurbed Coastway 313s look very modern inside

Was it just cost that made BR develop a range of Mk3 based EMUs, rather than converting the basic PEP into a 100mph unit?

 

[edwin_m]

The 210 was also designed to work alongside and even multiple with 317s, with the idea that trains for destinations beyond the wires could run as a coupled pair and split at the end of electrification. So it needed similar performance to the 317, which probably wasn't do-able with underfloor engines, and with the technology of the time an electric transmission was probably necessary to run in multiple with an EMU.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder why it never occurred to them to make it a bi-mode with smaller engines for lower-speed diesel work - or was that seen as too costly?

 

[Townsend Hook]

The refurbed Coastway 313s look very modern inside

Sort of, kind of, not really. Plus they ride worse than Pacers, are roasting hot in the summer and have no toilets, they are simply all round far worse units than those they replaced.

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[edwin_m]

I wonder why it never occurred to them to make it a bi-mode with smaller engines for lower-speed diesel work - or was that seen as too costly?

I would guess someone wrote a remit for the engineers without knowing how much it would cost, and then had second thoughts when the figures came in. Similar things happen in a wide range of projects. The 150 was of course the result of the second thoughts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sort of, kind of, not really. Plus they ride worse than Pacers

They really don't.


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[1179_Clee2]

The new RAIL magazine 818

Eight Class 319's fitted with diesel engines will be delivered to Northern at the end of the year under a deal between the operator, Porterbrook and the Rail North Partnership.
The trains will be put into service by spring 2018 after being converted by Wabtec Faiveley at Brush Traction, Loughborough work starts in May and identities have yet to be confirmed.
The trains are the first instalment of the planned additional 12 units that will be cascaded from Govia Thameslink Railway. All 8 to be rebuilt will be 319/4's.

Now 8 units not 4.

 

[northwichcat]

The new RAIL magazine 818

Eight Class 319's fitted with diesel engines will be delivered to Northern at the end of the year under a deal between the operator, Porterbrook and the Rail North Partnership.
The trains will be put into service by spring 2018 after being converted by Wabtec Faiveley at Brush Traction, Loughborough work starts in May and identities have yet to be confirmed.
The trains are the first instalment of the planned additional 12 units that will be cascaded from Govia Thameslink Railway. All 8 to be rebuilt will be 319/4's.

Now 8 units not 4.

Also interesting because under the franchise agreement 5 of the additional 12 x 319s were supposed to be returned once the last batch of 331s arrive in 2020.

 

[Camden]

Anyone got any further idea as to where these are going to be used?

 

[northwichcat]

Anyone got any further idea as to where these are going to be used?

Liverpool to Blackpool has been mentioned by Northern staff while Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton could be another route which isn't fully wired by March 2018.

 

[Elecman]

Manchester to Windermere via chat moss?

 

[northwichcat]

Manchester to Windermere via chat moss?

Requires revision to franchise agreement or fitting air conditioning and fitting tables to 90% of seats (which Porterbrook haven't mentioned) to 319s for them to be used on Windermere services.

 

[Elecman]

Not until Windermere becomes a Connect route in 2018

 

[SeanG]

But it wouldn't be worth training staff and sorting diagrams for just a few months

 

[47802]

Requires revision to franchise agreement or fitting air conditioning and fitting tables to 90% of seats (which Porterbrook haven't mentioned) to 319s for them to be used on Windermere services.

Isn't the requirement for Windermere only 4 connect services so might well be used on other services to Windermere, I would have thought Manchester - Wigan via Bolton would be likely since this would have been a likely 319 route after the now seemingly postponed electrification.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Requires revision to franchise agreement or fitting air conditioning and fitting tables to 90% of seats (which Porterbrook haven't mentioned) to 319s for them to be used on Windermere services.

There has been a significant material change (failure to electrify) so I would expect a change to the franchise agreement.

 

[Grumpy]

Leeds-Moorthorpe-Sheffield? Leeds-Morecambe? Manchester-Blackburn?

 

[47802]

Leeds-Moorthorpe-Sheffield? Leeds-Morecambe? Manchester-Blackburn?

I would expect them to be on services in the North West where the 319's are based, I suppose Manchester - Blackburn via Bolton might be possible I think the other 2 are unlikely.

 

[northwichcat]

Not until Windermere becomes a Connect route in 2018

The bi-mode 319s won't be available before Spring 2018.
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There has been a significant material change (failure to electrify) so I would expect a change to the franchise agreement.

The commitment was to make it a Northern Connect route in 2018 and to introduce new electric trains once the route is fully electrified. As the last batch of 331s were expected to arrive in 2020 I imagine the plan was 2 years of Northern Connect diesel services and then introduce 331s if wires are available.

I agree there will be changes (we've been told the cascade of GWR 150s has been delayed) but that doesn't automatically mean because the '319 Flex' has been announced that Northern Connect for Windermere will be dropped with the '319 Flex' being the solution. Maybe they'll soon be an announcement that the CAF order has been revised?

 

[Camden]

Liverpool to Blackpool has been mentioned by Northern staff while Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton could be another route which isn't fully wired by March 2018.

So, does this mean Blackpool's electrification is cancelled?...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wigan to Stalybridge via Bolton could be another route which isn't fully wired by March 2018.

While that might be technically possible, I doubt the idea is for such rapid fire-down/up of the diesel capability just for 20 minutes of wires in the middle of a predominantly diesel diagram.
Much more likely to be Manchester-Windermere-type routes with a substantial electric component and a short diesel extension.
8 units sounds like a couple of routes initially.
Again it all depends on the capability of the diesel add-on.

 

[northwichcat]

So, does this mean Blackpool's electrification is cancelled?...

Network Rail have said the wires will be ready by May 2018. They have a 3 month blockade planned starting this December so I would have hoped the line reopened with the electrics ready to use.
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While that might be technically possible, I doubt the idea is for such rapid fire-down/up of the diesel capability just for 20 minutes of wires in the middle of a predominantly diesel diagram.

Depends when Stalybridge gets wired. I thought that was a safe CP5 project whereas Wigan to Bolton wasn't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While that might be technically possible, I doubt the idea is for such rapid fire-down/up of the diesel capability just for 20 minutes of wires in the middle of a predominantly diesel diagram.
Much more likely to be Manchester-Windermere-type routes with a substantial electric component and a short diesel extension.
8 units sounds like a couple of routes initially.
Again it all depends on the capability of the diesel add-on.

Windermere and Barrow are made for this kind of thing.

 

[Elecman]

Windermere and Barrow are made for this kind of thing.

I agree

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I agree

Any info on progress re the 319 at Brush or is it too early?