Class 360 Heathrow Connect

[anti-pacer]

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but once Crossrail replaces Heathrow Connect, who will be the likely inheritors of their stock?

 

[swt class 450]

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere, but once Crossrail replaces Heathrow Connect, who will be the likely inheritors of their stock?

I dont think anything has been decided yet but i imagine that South West Trains could be likely to take them (after getting converted to operate on third rail).

 

[cjmillsnun]

I dont think anything has been decided yet but i imagine that South West Trains could be likely to take them (after getting converted to operate on third rail).

I doubt SWT will take them. They'd be a better fit with Greater Anglia (until fleet replacement) or London Midland, as they already have 25kv Desiro UK units. And I'm sure there are half a dozen other threads discussing this.

 

[D365]

And I'm sure there are half a dozen other threads discussing this.

Yep. Aside from the fact that Heathrow owns the units outright, so it's up to them what their future use is, I don't think we need to go over it again.

 

[anti-pacer]

Yep. Aside from the fact that Heathrow owns the units outright, so it's up to them what their future use is, I don't think we need to go over it again.

I did start my thread apologising if it's already been covered. However, I really haven't got time to trawl through thousands of posts on the off chance.

A simple link to these threads would have been greatly appreciated though.

 

[D365]

Unfortunately a lot of the discussions are on semi-related threads, so links aren't easy to find. The simple answer is that aside from the aborted c2c lease proposal, there's been no significant news as to where their future may lie.

 

[cactustwirly]

Probably the same place as the GE ones...

 

[47802]

I did start my thread apologising if it's already been covered. However, I really haven't got time to trawl through thousands of posts on the off chance.

A simple link to these threads would have been greatly appreciated though.

Yes but why bother asking the question, we don't know where they are going, same as we don't know where the Anglia stuff is going, so we end up with 25 pages of fairly pointless speculation.

 

[MatthewRead]

Use with London Midland has been heavily mooted.

 

[D365]

Use with London Midland has been heavily mooted.

However there will also be the more numerous Class 350/4, Class 360/1 and Northern Class 323 fleets coming off-lease shortly after.

 

[anti-pacer]

Yes but why bother asking the question, we don't know where they are going, same as we don't know where the Anglia stuff is going, so we end up with 25 pages of fairly pointless speculation.

I asked the question as I "thought" someone may know. If nobody does, I too am not interested in 25 pages of fairly pointless speculation.

 

[3141]

The most "likely" destination for the Heathrow Connect 360s is the same as the GE ones,a s Cactustwirly has said.

But that's just sensible guesswork, as no-one knows, and it interests me how much people believe that there are definite plans for where surplus stock will be going. Maybe there should be, but there aren't. If the DfT has the legal power to direct rolling stock owned by privately-owned ROSCOs to privately-owned TOCs - and I doubt that it generally has - it probably hasn't got the guts to use it consistently. With 25kv electrification largely off the future agenda we're likely to have large numbers of 319s, 321s and 360s surplus to requirements.

 

[JN114]

Storage, until Heathrow Western access opens.

 

[simple simon]

One of the unusual features of these trains is the floor lighting, as on aircraft.

The same also applies to the HeX trains.

Are any other British trains known to also have this?

Simon

 

[Peter Mugridge]

395s have it don't they?

 

[adc82140]

Storage, until Heathrow Western access opens.

Unlikely, I'd say- it'd be politically very sensitive to have modern EMUs in sidings when any electified line has capacity issues. Can you imagine the headlines?

IMO they'll go wherever the GA 360s go, which could be anywhere with 25kV- it wouldn't be a micro fleet.

 

[Kite159]

Unlikely, I'd say- it'd be politically very sensitive to have modern EMUs in sidings when any electified line has capacity issues. Can you imagine the headlines?

IMO they'll go wherever the GA 360s go, which could be anywhere with 25kV- it wouldn't be a micro fleet.

Apart from it will be a micro fleet of having 5-coaches against the 4-coaches from the GA 360s. Unless the new operator removes a coach from the 360/2s to make them 4-coaches

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from it will be a micro fleet of having 5-coaches against the 4-coaches from the GA 360s. Unless the new operator removes a coach from the 360/2s to make them 4-coaches

I'm sure they'll cope - there aren't many of them so they could perhaps be concentrated on specific services like Liverpool-Brum where capacity is sometimes a bit tight but not 8-car tight.

 

[JN114]

Unlikely, I'd say- it'd be politically very sensitive to have modern EMUs in sidings when any electified line has capacity issues. Can you imagine the headlines?

IMO they'll go wherever the GA 360s go, which could be anywhere with 25kV- it wouldn't be a micro fleet.

We'll see.

I'm not sure if Heathrow Airport Holdings care much about politics or newspaper headlines, but I do know they care a great deal about their lack of rolling stock to operate services west of Heathrow once WRAtH opens.

I'm also not sure if the DfT have changed their stance which previously forbade HAH leasing the 360s out to other operators.

There's also a great deal of differences between the GA 360s and HC 360s, someone will have to do a lot of interior re-fitting to get them to a matching spec.

People forget that Heathrow Express / Connect is a very, very different operation from the rest of the mainline railway. You can't apply ordinary "logic" to speculate on what they're going to do.

 

[Roast Veg]

Present information:

There's a 3 year window in which these units will not serve a purpose, from 2018 to 2021. The total number of units is 4 (with the fifth dedicated to the terminal 4-5 shuttle).

By the time we get to May 2018, will there be a desire from any TOC for that few 5 car AC units on a very short lease? Possibly, especially LM or whoever takes the GE units, but even then they might be better off where they are, even out of use - especially if there's an issue with their permission to lease.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By the time we get to May 2018, will there be a desire from any TOC for that few 5 car AC units on a very short lease?

I'd imagine LM, as it would allow the unreliable 319s to be binned.

Can a coach be easily removed from Desiros if they didn't want odd-length sets? (Though as I said I think they may be useful as 5-car on certain services - how many sets does the Liverpool to Brum circuit require?).

Edit: it appears to take 1h45 ish from end to end. So if you round that to 2 hours for some layover, one unit takes 4 hours for a round trip. So half hourly would require 8 units. Not quite enough, but if diagrammed properly they could still help matters.

 

[Roast Veg]

The seven 319s they have aren't covered by the four HC 360s, and would be better replaced by the 21 GE 360s in 2019, or a return of the numerous 321s at a similar time, or (most likely) the 10 TPE 350s in 2019.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seven 319s they have aren't covered by the four HC 360s, and would be better replaced by the 21 GE 360s in 2019, or a return of the numerous 321s at a similar time, or (most likely) the 10 TPE 350s in 2019.

There are five 360s, not four. HEx aren't going to keep one of them alone for the Heathrow shuttle - that would be a hell of a microfleet - they'll use a HEx unit.

Given the fact that they are 5-car units and the 319s are (a) 4-car and (b) very unreliable, 5 of those would be a lot more use than 7 319s.

 

[D365]

There are five 360s, not four. HEx aren't going to keep one of them alone for the Heathrow shuttle - that would be a hell of a microfleet - they'll use a HEx unit.

:roll: There isn't going to be a shuttle, Crossrail's 4tph will provide the service.

 

[Roast Veg]

Crossrail will not be running to T5, however there do seem to be some HX spares - why did they not use a 331 on the shuttle in the first place?

 

[JN114]

Crossrail will not be running to T5, however there do seem to be some HX spares - why did they not use a 331 on the shuttle in the first place?

Acceleration (or lack thereof), and stopping points on the platform (332s must draw down to the very end of the platform, even if formed a single unit). That combination causes the ITT to lose a shed load of time vs a 360.

The first T4 shuttles were run as 332s back in 2008, it lasted from March until the TT change in May before they switched to 360 operation. It does happen from time to time when they're short of 360s, but they try and avoid it.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Could a light rail type unit/tram be brought in for the shuttle, freeing up the 5th 360 to go wherever the other 4 go?

 

[D365]

Could a light rail type unit/tram be brought in for the shuttle, freeing up the 5th 360 to go wherever the other 4 go?

I specifically stated, three posts before, that the shuttle won't exist once Crossrail has taken over. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I specifically stated, three posts before, that the shuttle won't exist once Crossrail has taken over. Why is that so hard to understand?

Crossrail won't be going to Terminal 5 so the shuttle will still be needed

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/route/maps/route-map

 

[D365]

Crossrail won't be going to Terminal 5 so the shuttle will still be needed

There isn't a Terminal 5 shuttle, the only reason that one exists currently is because Heathrow Connect is 2tph; both Heathrow Express and the replacement Crossrail service are 4tph.