Sheffield/Rotherham Tram-Train update

[Sunbird24]

It is government-controlled and funded? Their schedule shows new trams to be introduced sometime this year on the tram network only. Full integration into the Heavy rail network is not scheduled to commence until mid 2018.

 

[Harpers Tate]

There isn't the money to get the 25kV feeder equipment in place......

...but there is the money to design, approve and install bespoke dual-voltage catenary gear - and in energising it initially at 750vDC, actually fail to offer to prove what may (elsewhere) become a significant element of the tram-train concept.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Do we actually know what the delay is in getting the delivered tram-trains running on the existing tram network? Problem with the trams, problem with the infrastructure or a combination?

 

[TC60054]

It is government-controlled and funded? Their schedule shows new trams to be introduced sometime this year on the tram network only. Full integration into the Heavy rail network is not scheduled to commence until mid 2018.

That's the current plan as it stands.

Do we actually know what the delay is in getting the delivered tram-trains running on the existing tram network? Problem with the trams, problem with the infrastructure or a combination?

Issues with the vehicles have been prevalent since day one of testing - notably though the first testing setback was an infrastructure issue. Commissioning is due to start imminently.

 

[eastwestdivide]

...
Issues with the vehicles have been prevalent since day one of testing - notably though the first testing setback was an infrastructure issue. Commissioning is due to start imminently.

Any particular issues? There's not a lot published on progress so far.

 

[TC60054]

Any particular issues? There's not a lot published on progress so far.

Two of the most known about issues are the weak couplings (which caused two crashes during testing, one substantially more severe than the other), and the current issue with something to do with the windscreens.

 

[WatcherZero]

They were going to change out the glass in all the windscreens because in one of the previous minor bump incidents it had shattered if I remember right.

 

[TC60054]

They were going to change out the glass in all the windscreens because in one of the previous minor bump incidents it had shattered if I remember right.

That sounds pretty much spot on the money. Something to do with them not being strong enough in the event of an accident (not like that needs to be tested any further )

 

[edwin_m]

There isn't the money to get the 25kV feeder equipment in place. Especially seeing as progress with the Midland electrification programme has long been lacking.

As I understand it the Midland electrification even when complete doesn't go beyond Sheffield station. A 25kV feeder is an expensive beast, requires a heavy-duty grid connection and you really need two of them to provide backup for failure of the equipment or the supply. All of this would be a huge cost for a small section of 25kV. Hence the idea of electrifying the NR section at 750V, which can be fed at one end from Supertram and from the other by a new substation which I believe is relocateable.

It's quite likely that 25kV will come to Rotherham during the 30-year lifetime of the tram-trains, at which point the substation can be taken away for use elsewhere and (in theory at least) the OLE can be energised at 25kV with the minimum of work.

 

[snowball]

surely it would have been quicker, and a better and more complete pilot, to have "simply" erected 25kvAC masts and used that voltage from day 1 (or 1001 depending on your point of view).

There isn't the money to get the 25kV feeder equipment in place. Especially seeing as progress with the Midland electrification programme has long been lacking.

Also it has been suggested relatively recently that some of the bridges would require rebuilding for 25kV clearance.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's quite likely that 25kV will come to Rotherham during the 30-year lifetime of the tram-trains, at which point the substation can be taken away for use elsewhere and (in theory at least) the OLE can be energised at 25kV with the minimum of work.

Before Hendy (BH?) it was more or less confirmed that electrification would follow on to Doncaster and to the junction with the Doncaster-Leeds line at Moorthorpe.

 

[D365]

Also it has been suggested relatively recently that some of the bridges would require rebuilding for 25kV clearance.

Yep, I can understand that.

Before Hendy (BH?) it was more or less confirmed that electrification would follow on to Doncaster and to the junction with the Doncaster-Leeds line at Moorthorpe.

Pity that it's not being done in time, a line like this would have been ideal to soak up a few of the soon to be off-lease Class 321s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If the problem is with providing equipment compatible with both AC and DC electrification, would it be easier to wire Sheffield to Moorthorpe at the DC voltage (when it eventually happens) and modify a sub-fleet of 319s to run at both voltages on OHLE? Changeover could then be done during the station stop at Moorthorpe.

 

[edwin_m]

If the problem is with providing equipment compatible with both AC and DC electrification, would it be easier to wire Sheffield to Moorthorpe at the DC voltage (when it eventually happens) and modify a sub-fleet of 319s to run at both voltages on OHLE? Changeover could then be done during the station stop at Moorthorpe.

The problem appears to be getting NR to approve DC OLE above its own infrastructure. Introducing it over a wider area certainly wouldn't help and would severely limit flexibility at some time in the future when there was a need to run longer-distance electric trains.

 

[DimTim]

Do we not have 1500dc at Sunderland?
Can we not tap into that experience?

College Rd bridge adjacent Rotherham station prevents 25kv - track cannot be lowered as susceptible to flooding.

 

[edwin_m]

Do we not have 1500dc at Sunderland?
Can we not tap into that experience?

College Rd bridge adjacent Rotherham station prevents 25kv - track cannot be lowered as susceptible to flooding.

Yes we have 1500V at Sunderland and (pre-Hendy at least) it was going to be a real headache with 25kV spreading round the region. One reason Nexus proposes to include 25kV capability on the replacement stock.

Clearly a bridge re-building for 25kV isn't necessary in the tram-train scheme. If and when the line needs converting for 25kV the bridge will have to be re-built and the OLE adjusted in this area, but the use of 25kV components minimises the amount of work needed to convert the rest of the route. It should also reduce the problem of getting NR approval for non-standard components.

 

[snowball]

The pre-war Altrincham and 1950s Glossop/Hadfield 1500V DC electrification were converted to 25kV with much less trouble, so far as I know, and the Altrincham was later converted back to 750V DC!

The insulators must have been replaced when the voltage was increased, but other than that I think a lot of stuff was retained at both conversions.

 

[po8crg]

The pre-war Altrincham and 1950s Glossop/Hadfield 1500V DC electrification were converted to 25kV with much less trouble, so far as I know, and the Altrincham was later converted back to 750V DC!

I don't think the conversion itself is the problem, it's that you either have to have heavy-rail trains or metrocars that can use both 1500V and 25kV. Dual-voltage on heavy rail isn't going to happen, but the current single-voltage metrocars mean that nothing can be done to electrify Sunderland until they're replaced.

Post-Hendy, that's not a problem, as the timescales for NR electrification have headed off into the sunset.

 

[snowball]

I don't think the conversion itself is the problem, it's that you either have to have heavy-rail trains or metrocars that can use both 1500V and 25kV. Dual-voltage on heavy rail isn't going to happen, but the current single-voltage metrocars mean that nothing can be done to electrify Sunderland until they're replaced.

Post-Hendy, that's not a problem, as the timescales for NR electrification have headed off into the sunset.

I was not referring to Tyne and Wear. I was comparing the difficulties that NR is claiming for the Sheffield/Rotherham project (which the thread is about) to what previously happened around Manchester.

 

[TC60054]

399206 made a trip down to Halfway overnight, I believe this is one of it's first times out on the network.

 

[Kite159]

399206 made a trip down to Halfway overnight, I believe this is one of it's first times out on the network.

Hopefully it won't be long before they are actually out on the network in revenue earning service.

 

[D365]

399206 made a trip down to Halfway overnight, I believe this is one of it's first times out on the network.

What time was that then? I really need to keep my curtains open

 

[TC60054]

What time was that then? I really need to keep my curtains open

Returned inbound at about 0400 :roll: I've got a feeling it was primarily used to make sure that the overheads were free of any ice / frost that'd cause any issues for service.

 

[D365]

Returned inbound at about 0400 :roll: I've got a feeling it was primarily used to make sure that the overheads were free of any ice / frost that'd cause any issues for service.

Oh right, so being used as a mule then. Chances are I might have been awake then as my sleeping pattern is very much off-kilter!

 

[TC60054]

Delays to service between Birley and Halfway this morning due to a tram failing at Hackenthorpe. I assume it's a 399 on an overnight test run, seeing as though it happened at 0500 and the first service tram leaves depot at 0520!

 

[TC60054]

Delays to service between Birley and Halfway this morning due to a tram failing at Hackenthorpe. I assume it's a 399 on an overnight test run, seeing as though it happened at 0500 and the first service tram leaves depot at 0520!

Well and truly broken and definitely a 399 - tram now been assisted to Halfway where it has been abandoned..!

 

[TC60054]

Posters now up at tram stops in Sheffield mentioning that the 399s are out on test and are not for public service. I assume this means we're getting close to seeing them out on the network during the day now.

 

[TC60054]

399201 has become the first to run on the network during daylight, under its own power today.

https://flic.kr/p/SANCjD

 

[D365]

399201 has become the first to run on the network during daylight, under its own power today.

Do you know if that was the unit running last night? I came across a tram passing through Granville Road at about 2.30am, with the front/rear destination screens set to blue.

 

[TC60054]

Do you know if that was the unit running last night? I came across a tram passing through Granville Road at about 2.30am, with the front/rear destination screens set to blue.

That should've been 204.

 

[button_boxer]

My first view of one of the new vehicles, at Hillsborough this morning. Not the best image, it's a crop of one taken on my phone from a fair distance away, just before another tram blocked the view...