English Sunday trading laws

[Stonesourscotty]

Some people like myself choose to work Sundays as i find if shops aren't open i tend to go the pub for a few pints instead i now work Sunday-Thursdays as it means i get to watch two days of the Ashes and can save more for my trip to Taiwan and WHV in NZ

 

[Busaholic]

Now the first 411 gets into Kingston at 0753.

Lucky residents of Surrey who inhabit the majority of the 411 route getting London style levels of service without having to pay for it directly.

Looking at the subject generally, I doubt extension of shop opening hours on Sundays will lead to more buses on that day: indeed, as some have pointed out, by shopping not being concentrated into six hours, hourly flows may decrease and make some marginally-commercial services uneconomic! Local councils supporting services during shopping hours may also not have the wherewithal to pay out any more to extend the hours of operation of those services. Councils such as Herts are refusing to support Sunday services any longer, except for those serving hospitals.

In practice, after a period of Sunday shop hour expansion I don't believe when things settle that we'll have things very different from now, with the possible exception of Central London. There the big stores on Oxford Street tend to open from midday to 6 p.m. to reflect the far greater numbers of afternoon rather than morning shoppers, and I would expect that to become, say, 10 a.m. to 7 p.m. Supermarkets might also go to 10 to 6, but not much beyond.

 

[Hadders]

I'm not in favour of extending the Sunday Trading Laws. This isn't about the rights and wrongs about shop workers working on Sundays, there are plenty of other industries that operate 7 days a week. Although, make no mistake there is incredible pressure on retail staff to work Sundays, it might be billed as optional (and legally it largely is) but in reality it isn't.

For me extending Sunday Trading would mean that Sunday would just be like the other six days of the week. Do we really want that? Or as a society would we rather a day that was a little different to the others?

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[radamfi]

I had a feeling that it'd be easier now

The "Timetable Graveyard" shows that even from 28 June 2003 the buses started about that time:

http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/times/List_of_timetables_400_to_449.htm

Lucky residents of Surrey who inhabit the majority of the 411 route getting London style levels of service without having to pay for it directly.

TfL funding mostly comes from national taxation and only a small part comes from Council Tax, so Surrey residents more or less pay the same for TfL as Londoners.

 

[neilmc]

I've noticed Sunday bus services in Manchester gradually improving. In my area what were formerly half-hourly services have been upped to every 15 minutes which makes Sunday daytime services more frequent than weekday evenings, something which would never have been seen in cities until recently.

When I was a conductor in Leeds we worked alternate Sundays and this was at, I think, time and three-quarters. No fighting with traffic jams or full standing loads on Sundays meant staff were quite happy to work.

 

[radamfi]

I've noticed Sunday bus services in Manchester gradually improving. In my area what were formerly half-hourly services have been upped to every 15 minutes which makes Sunday daytime services more frequent than weekday evenings, something which would never have been seen in cities until recently.

Manchester is a rather special case as it has seen a substantial increase in population, and the incomers are typically young and therefore low car users (today's young people are less likely to drive, or even own driving licences, than previous generations - search for "peak car"). This trend mostly applies to the inner city. In the outer suburbs/satellite towns, Sunday services have suffered dramatically as tendered services have been savagely cut.

 

[Amberley54]

Manchester is a rather special case as it has seen a substantial increase in population, and the incomers are typically young and therefore low car users (today's young people are less likely to drive, or even own driving licences, than previous generations - search for "peak car"). This trend mostly applies to the inner city. In the outer suburbs/satellite towns, Sunday services have suffered dramatically as tendered services have been savagely cut.

Indeed, Manchester is the fastest growing city outside London and its population has now passed the 500,000 mark, back to its 1971 census level and strongly reversing the trend over the previous 40 years. All the other greater Manchester authorities have also seen growth over the past decade, albeit much more modest ( mainly due to inward migration and greater life expectancy) except Stockport that has seen a slight fall in population.

I'll collect my anorak on the way out.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

To be absolutely honest, we've probably never had it so good in terms of Sunday bus provision but with an important caveat. Most of that is the result of commercial operation and will favour the main corridors. Other lesser routes that had a Sunday service are losing them as local authority budgets are cut by the government.

Take another area I know well, which is Wiltshire. About 20 years ago, there were some regular services locally in Swindon and Salisbury whilst interurban routes were a lot patchier:

Bath to Trowbridge (120)
Swindon to Chippenham (120 but hourly Swindon to RWB)
Salisbury to Ringwood and Bournemouth (60)
Bath to Chippenham (120)
Salisbury to Larkhill (120)
Salisbury to Odstock (120)
Swindon to Oxford (120)
Salisbury to Andover(60)
Bath to Devizes - (3 journeys)
Salisbury to Southampton (3 journeys)
Salisbury to Blandford (2 journeys - ostensibly for returning soldiers from the Rail Stn to Blandford Camp)

And now the pattern is

Bath to Trowbridge (now 60 with extension to Warminster every 120)
Swindon to Chippenham (now 30)
Salisbury to Ringwood and Bournemouth (now 60)
Bath to Chippenham (120)
Salisbury to Larkhill (now 60)
Salisbury to Odstock (withdrawn)
Swindon to Oxford (60)
Salisbury to Andover(60)
Bath to Devizes - (120)
Salisbury to Southampton (withdrawn)
Salisbury to Blandford (withdrawn)
Swindon to Devizes (introduced 60)

Think that highlights that on the better routes, there is the potential to grow (aided by a bit of pump priming, it has to be said) but the least patronised routes that will never really be commercial will be lost as the government cuts come in

 

[sng7]

I'm not in favour of extending the Sunday Trading Laws. This isn't about the rights and wrongs about shop workers working on Sundays, there are plenty of other industries that operate 7 days a week. Although, make no mistake there is incredible pressure on retail staff to work Sundays, it might be billed as optional (and legally it largely is) but in reality it isn't.

For me extending Sunday Trading would mean that Sunday would just be like the other six days of the week. Do we really want that? Or as a society would we rather a day that was a little different to the others?

Be careful what you wish for.

In scotland there are no sunday trading laws, 24 hours supermarkets are still open 24 hours and most other shops (at least of the chains) are open for most of the day (often not opening till a bit later but closing around usual) and all is good, its convenient for the people who do have sundays off as they are able to spend the whole day shopping and it means the people in retail who work on sundays can still go to the supermarket if they need to on the way home. So from my perspective the english system seems outdated and I can't see what the doom and gloom about it is. Coincidently (in edinburgh itself at least) buses are less frequent but almost all bus routes run just slightly less frequent.

 

[yorksrob]

I think we have a reasonable compromise at the moment. It's not like the bad old days, when there there was nothing to do except watch The Waltons (I still remember the sense of impending boredom !) but presently shop workers get to go home a bit earlier.

 

[Amberley54]

I think we have a reasonable compromise at the moment. It's not like the bad old days, when there there was nothing to do except watch The Waltons (I still remember the sense of impending boredom !) but presently shop workers get to go home a bit earlier.

Er, not all of us in retail start at 10.00 and finish at 16.00 on a Sunday! How do you think the groceries get onto the shelves?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Er, not all of us in retail start at 10.00 and finish at 16.00 on a Sunday! How do you think the groceries get onto the shelves?

Yep but the fear would be that if stores opened until 2000, then the staff will still need to be employed afterwards to merchandise product.

 

[Amberley54]

Yep but the fear would be that if stores opened until 2000, then the staff will still need to be employed afterwards to merchandise product.

Sorry, didn't make myself clear. Retail staff already work well outside the existing statutory Sunday trading hours. For example, I start at 06.00 on a Sunday and doors dont open until 09.30

 

[Techniquest]

I think we have a reasonable compromise at the moment. It's not like the bad old days, when there there was nothing to do except watch The Waltons (I still remember the sense of impending boredom !) but presently shop workers get to go home a bit earlier.

Er, not all of us in retail start at 10.00 and finish at 16.00 on a Sunday! How do you think the groceries get onto the shelves?

It's all done by magic! We don't have a hard job, no not at all, we just wave our magic wands and it's all there!

 

[yorksrob]

Unless of course, you want an even longer working day......

 

[hilly]

Unless of course, you want an even longer working day......

Most supermarkets have shifts covering 24 hours a day already so any change would make no difference at all

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Most supermarkets have shifts covering 24 hours a day already so any change would make no difference at all

The question is more about town centre stores rather than supermarkets

 

[yorksrob]

Most supermarkets have shifts covering 24 hours a day already so any change would make no difference at all

Well, there are shops that aren't supermarkets and of those that aren't open of a Sunday evening, I suspect the staff enjoy the shorter day.

 

[Busaholic]

The "Timetable Graveyard" shows that even from 28 June 2003 the buses started about that time:

http://mjcarchive.www.idnet.com/times/List_of_timetables_400_to_449.htm



TfL funding mostly comes from national taxation and only a small part comes from Council Tax, so Surrey residents more or less pay the same for TfL as Londoners.

OK, I'll phrase it slightly differently. If the service ran wholly within Surrey rather than predominantly within that county then TfL would have no responsibility for running the service, and then either an operator would have to run it commercially or Surrey CC put it out to tender- either way, you would not get the level of service early on a Sunday morning or on a Sunday evening that currently pertain, plus the fares would be hugely increased.

 

[Ianigsy]

I can remember shopping (or trying to) in Leeds city centre about 1998, so within five years of the laws being liberalised, and it was a very mixed experience. Because of the position regarding contracts of employment, it tended to be largely junior weekend staff working so the standard of service was unpredictable to say the least.

In the 18 years that I've lived where I do now, the Sunday service to Leeds has doubled in frequency and then had a couple of later runs added to ensure a half-hourly service until the end of shopping hours. I don't tend to do very much on Sundays myself anyway, but it's probably right that twenty years on and with internet shopping now normal, it's right to look at things again. There's a greater proportion of the population for whom Sunday has no religious significance, shopping in itself has developed as a leisure pursuit and online shopping has changed everything. If I wake up on a Sunday morning and decide that I'd like to see a particular film or read a particular book, I can either wait for the window of opportunity when the shops are open or I can download them there and then.

Interesting to see how the Germans have worked around their Sunday traing ban too- every time a new railway station or airport terminal gets built, it comes with a shopping centre bolted on "for the use of travellers", although from what I could see passing through Dusseldorf a couple of years ago, the airport shopping was being promoted as a leisure destination in its own right.

 

[TUC]

I think the link between longer sunday trading hours and better bus services will depend more on the attitude of the local operator in any given area.

for example... when sunday trading was first introduced MK Metro and Milton Keynes council took the decision to use the opportunity to build services... most in Milton Keynes run every 15-30 mins during shopping hours and are well used (at least 2 services running every 15 mins are commercial)

then look at Luton where the dominant operator has always been arriva... and a council that isn't interested in supporting bus services... before the b3usway opened if sunday buses were considered animals they would've been on the critically endangered species list... there were only a couple of hourly services left in the area... in fact since the busway opened there has only been a half hearted attempt to save them from extinction.

I don't think extending sunday trading will produce any significant difference in approach by bus companies than they employ now.

Just from personal observation, there does seem to be a corrolation between whether a local authority actively supports Sunday bus services and the number of commercial services that operate. Where there are a high number of LA supported services, there also tends to be a greater number of commercial services, with the reverse also being true.

 

[Busaholic]

Just from personal observation, there does seem to be a corrolation between whether a local authority actively supports Sunday bus services and the number of commercial services that operate. Where there are a high number of LA supported services, there also tends to be a greater number of commercial services, with the reverse also being true.

Open to argument but if an operator is going to open a depot on a Sunday for tendered services then the additional costs associated with running a commercial service or two from the same depot would probably be less than if the tendered services weren't there.

 

[175mph]

Best of luck for those in Lincolnshire whose only Sunday services are primarily the Interconnect services, anything else is extra and in Louth (a town which is cut off from the railway) they have nowt on a Sunday whatsoever but the bus stations toilets are open for service.

In my part of Lincolnshire, (Scunthorpe), we only have four services on a Sunday, two town circulars running every half hour to replace the weekday services, the 350 to Hull and a limited service to a town called Brigg.

 

[overthewater]

In my part of Lincolnshire, (Scunthorpe), we only have four services on a Sunday, two town circulars running every half hour to replace the weekday services, the 350 to Hull and a limited service to a town called Brigg.

The 31/32A give covers nearly all of Scunthopre, and in some places give you a 15mins service, plus it operate into Gallagher retail park, which it good going, compared to many other towns.

 

[175mph]

The 31/32A give covers nearly all of Scunthopre, and in some places give you a 15mins service, plus it operate into Gallagher retail park, which it good going, compared to many other towns.

Yet despite that, there are some elderly people I've spoken to, some who even live directly on the 31a/32a route might I add who insist that Scunthorpe no longer has any Sunday service whatsoever. :roll:

 

[overthewater]

Yet despite that, there are some elderly people I've spoken to, some who even live directly on the 31a/32a route might I add who insist that Scunthorpe no longer has any Sunday service whatsoever. :roll:

Thats nothing new :P where i live people also believe there no sunday service because its a different number.