English Sunday trading laws

[overthewater]

Could the relaxed English Sunday trading law have a direct benefit to many bus companies? or the opposite? since many big retail parks could open of longer etc

I'm not sure what its like down south in relation to this overall, I've been in England on a few Sundays and its just weird how empty many places were.

 

[pitdiver]

It won't make any difference where I live on how long the shops open on a Sunday. We have one reasonably large supermarket that open for the 6 hrs but has difficulty getting staff to work for those 6 hrs. As for buses, we don't have any Sunday bus services.

 

[pompeyfan]

In a nut shell, no I don't think it'll have an effect on Sunday services, certainly not near where I live and work. At the end of the day any extra buses need to generate the revenue to cover the cost of the driver and the fuel, without that guarantee that it will grow etc then there is no point. Extended opening hours won't generate extra trade, it will simply spread out when people choose to shop.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Agree with Pompey. It could have a detrimental effect by merely diluting Sunday trade which is often nicely condensed into a decent average shift length.

After all, we've seen this (in part) with evening services. On major routes, there's probably enough demand but many services have seen extended pub opening hours just fragment and dilute trade. Also, my personal view is that we don't really need more shopping time? If you can't manage to get to the shops on the other 6.5 days, it's a sad look out.

 

[gordonthemoron]

we already have 24/7 shopping, it's called the internet

 

[Tetchytyke]

Scotland has unrestricted Sunday trading, and has had it for many years. What happens in Scotland with the bus services there?

Whilst longer hours in supermarkets will simply dilute trade, that's probably less of an issue for city centre shopping. Most people on a Saturday choose to shop at broadly similar times- between 1pm and 5pm- so you'd probably see the same thing on Sundays.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One thing I have noticed is the far greater disparity between weekday/Sunday services outside of London. On many bus routes (and indeed rail routes*) in the provinces even including PTE areas the current level of service (and timing of first/last services) is insufficient even for the current, restricted Sunday trading conditions. Especially from the point of view of workers rather than shoppers.

If shops were open longer, perhaps some operators would see the potential for boosting revenue and would improve services... But as bus transport is beyond the control (for the most part) of government there's very little impetus for a speculative improvement. Thus we end up with a "chicken and egg" situation...

*The Northern ITT looks to improve this, but I'll believe it when I see it!

 

[overthewater]

Scotland has unrestricted Sunday trading, and has had it for man years. What happens in Scotland with the bus services there?.

Depends on the routes, it can be a real mix bag, but there is still plenty of routes which are still paid for by the councils. But thats not to say you can't get full buses especial at 8-9am, mainly for workers.

 

[Western Lord]

Just to clarify the situation, the Sunday trading laws have NOT been relaxed. The proposal is to devolve responsibilty to local mayors or councils, who may or may not agree to changes. Maybe in some areas, in view of the difficulty supermarkets sometimes have getting planning permission for new stores, they might decide to reduce supermarket hours in the hope of stimulating local shop trading!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I think the link between longer sunday trading hours and better bus services will depend more on the attitude of the local operator in any given area.

for example... when sunday trading was first introduced MK Metro and Milton Keynes council took the decision to use the opportunity to build services... most in Milton Keynes run every 15-30 mins during shopping hours and are well used (at least 2 services running every 15 mins are commercial)

then look at Luton where the dominant operator has always been arriva... and a council that isn't interested in supporting bus services... before the busway opened if sunday buses were considered animals they would've been on the critically endangered species list... there were only a couple of hourly services left in the area... in fact since the busway opened there has only been a half hearted attempt to save them from extinction.

I don't think extending sunday trading will produce any significant difference in approach by bus companies than they employ now.

 

[me123]

Scotland has unrestricted Sunday trading, and has had it for many years. What happens in Scotland with the bus services there?

Generally, we still have a much reduced service on Sundays, with quite a lot of routes still not operating. For example, the buses that run outside my door run at least 5 times an hour Mon-Sat, reduced to just two on a Sunday. The start times are much later too.

We've never had restricted Sunday trading in Scotland (at least, not in my lifetime), so I can't comment if there's any increase in demand for public transport as a result. I suspect that demand will increase slowly over time.

One thing I can say is that Sundays are busy shopping days in Scotland, and it's fantastic to see. Trains into Glasgow on Sundays are usually close to capacity. Buchanan Street can easily be as busy on a Sunday afternoon as on a Saturday. Shops can turn over a lot of money on a Sunday. When I worked for a supermarket, I worked most Sundays for a few years, and we were certainly busy for more than six hours a day. In fact, given how busy our store was, I'm glad we were open almost as long on Sundays as we were on Saturdays - if we concentrated all the trade onto Saturday we would have been overwhelmed.

Sunday has the potential to be a big shopping day if the laws in England are relaxed. It will not be a sudden change, but once you start to get a lot of shops opening for longer, you'll start to see quite a marked increase in footfall I suspect. And with that, I would imagine bus services may see an increase in demand and, subsequently, some increase in frequency on some routes.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Where in live in St Helens (Near Liverpool and Manchester) Sunday Services have been slowly getting better over the last few Years so i think if this out of date Sunday Opening Hours thing was got rid of Shops would open longer and i think Sunday Services here would improve even more, Seems to be the only good thing the Con have ever talked about doing!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Where in live in St Helens (Near Liverpool and Manchester) Sunday Services have been slowly getting better over the last few Years so i think if this out of date Sunday Opening Hours thing was got rid of Shops would open longer and i think Sunday Services here would improve even more, Seems to be the only good thing the Con have ever talked about doing!

We have Sunday opening now. Stores are open 6 hours plus browsing time. Services operate 9-6 roughly to facilitate travel.

The problem is that large stores, by their very nature, have a high fixed cost and proportionately low variable cost so opening longer suits them.

Bus services have a much higher proportion of variable cost and I wonder if longer days means 33% more journeys. Therefore, more fuel and more wages but a minimal increase in passengers. Sunday services work because it's nicely condensed.

From a non PT standpoint, why can't we not pander to a need to go shopping all the time? 30 years ago, Boxing Day was a day of rest. Now we see it as a fundamental human right to go shopping. And no, I'm not religious!!

 

[Hophead]

Where in live in St Helens (Near Liverpool and Manchester) Sunday Services have been slowly getting better over the last few Years so i think if this out of date Sunday Opening Hours thing was got rid of Shops would open longer and i think Sunday Services here would improve even more, Seems to be the only good thing the Con have ever talked about doing!

Similar in my part of Sussex, too, so I'm surprised that there are areas and companies that don't seem to have taken advantage of the traffic on offer. The reason may be that pay could well be at overtime rates, so needs good loadings to make the services profitable.

 

[Y961 XBU]

Similar in my part of Sussex, too, so I'm surprised that there are areas and companies that don't seem to have taken advantage of the traffic on offer. The reason may be that pay could well be at overtime rates, so needs good loadings to make the services profitable.

the main Company of St Helens are Arriva and i am lead to understand Drivers get paid Time and quarter just to work a Sunday, I dont see why people should get paid extra to work a Sunday, to me i would rather work on a Sunday as what else are you going to do apart from hang around the House? Plus that would most likley give you a day of in the week where everything is open

 

[Amberley54]

the main Company of St Helens are Arriva and i am lead to understand Drivers get paid Time and quarter just to work a Sunday, I dont see why people should get paid extra to work a Sunday, to me i would rather work on a Sunday as what else are you going to do apart from hang around the House? Plus that would most likley give you a day of in the week where everything is open

I'm just about to set off for work as the large national retailer I work for really struggles to get staff to work Sunday as they obviously prefer to 'hang around the house' as you describe it rather than earn premium payments.

Perhaps they prefer to spend Sunday with their family - I would!

Anyway, must dash as first buses on Sunday around here not until 10.00. So walking my only option.

 

[Robertj21a]

the main Company of St Helens are Arriva and i am lead to understand Drivers get paid Time and quarter just to work a Sunday, I dont see why people should get paid extra to work a Sunday, to me i would rather work on a Sunday as what else are you going to do apart from hang around the House? Plus that would most likley give you a day of in the week where everything is open

That sounds rather like someone who doesn't have a wife who wants to get out for at least one day a week, children who want to be taken out, or a house/garden that needs some DIY, or just TLC :roll:

 

[Amberley54]

That sounds rather like someone who doesn't have a wife who wants to get out for at least one day a week, children who want to be taken out, or a house/garden that needs some DIY, or just TLC :roll:

My thoughts exactly!

Just finished shift and trying to salvage rest of day with my family.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Methinks that y961 may be a younger person not in full time employment. Like others, I live for the weekends!!

 

[AM9]

I'm just about to set off for work as the large national retailer I work for really struggles to get staff to work Sunday as they obviously prefer to 'hang around the house' as you describe it rather than earn premium payments.

Perhaps they prefer to spend Sunday with their family - I would!

Anyway, must dash as first buses on Sunday around here not until 10.00. So walking my only option.

I employers have problems persuading staff to work on Sundays, they should pay whatever premium it takes. Labour is just another commodity that can be sold. If they aren't getting enough to work then their rates are too low. It's called 'market forces'.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm just about to set off for work as the large national retailer I work for really struggles to get staff to work Sunday as they obviously prefer to 'hang around the house' as you describe it rather than earn premium payments.

Perhaps they prefer to spend Sunday with their family - I would!

Anyway, must dash as first buses on Sunday around here not until 10.00. So walking my only option.

And there we have it! Bus services on Sunday are geared to shoppers and not workers, even TfL caused me to have to refuse Sunday shifts at my student retail job, as the first arrival into Kingston on a Sunday was a ridiculous 1120!!

 

[Techniquest]

I don't have a bus service on Sundays or Bank Holidays here. I really can't stand Bank Holidays as a result, especially when they get in the way of my scheduled bashes!

We had a short trial with a separate operator for Sundays in 2002, it just didn't work as no-one would use them. At the time I wasn't a basher, I was a college brat (as I would refer to my past self now) who was still around 14 months away from discovering the joy of the railway. I'd use it at least every other week now, but what can you do...

We have enough people to work on Sundays without paying them extra, well just about enough. Bank Holidays we are lucky to get bumped up to time and a half. Although when I work Bank Holidays I have to pay for a lift in and a lift home, so it doesn't provide any extra for me at all, indeed I make a loss when it comes to Bank Holiday Frothdays, Boxing Day, New Year's Day etc.

Extending our Sunday hours would only make things worse where I am I reckon. We'd be better off closing on Sundays altogether quite frankly!

No point even hoping for better bus services here, they're getting cut even more than they were last year in my area. Wouldn't be surprised if we lose services even on the heavily used routes soon...

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Best of luck for those in Lincolnshire whose only Sunday services are primarily the Interconnect services, anything else is extra and in Louth (a town which is cut off from the railway) they have nowt on a Sunday whatsoever but the bus stations toilets are open for service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Best of luck for those in Lincolnshire whose only Sunday services are primarily the Interconnect services, anything else is extra and in Louth (a town which is cut off from the railway) they have nowt on a Sunday whatsoever but the bus stations toilets are open for service.

I see that - Louth pop:16,000 and raise you Yeovil. Not a service now for a town of 45,000 people. It does have some trains but the station(s) is some distance away.

 

[Busaholic]

And there we have it! Bus services on Sunday are geared to shoppers and not workers, even TfL caused me to have to refuse Sunday shifts at my student retail job, as the first arrival into Kingston on a Sunday was a ridiculous 1120!!

Are you sure this was a TfL service and, if so, how long ago was this?

 

[Amberley54]

I employers have problems persuading staff to work on Sundays, they should pay whatever premium it takes. Labour is just another commodity that can be sold. If they aren't getting enough to work then their rates are too low. It's called 'market forces'.

In a perfectly balanced market economy that would indeed be the case, but as we all know the UK labour market is now grossly skewed to the disadvantage of the lowest paid, and is about to get even worse when Osbourne's budget changes are implemented. However, perhaps that is a debate for another thread.

What I do know is that the disappearance of Sunday and evening bus services after 18.30 around here have made recruitment that bit harder for my employer.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In a perfectly balanced market economy that would indeed be the case, but as we all know the UK labour market is now grossly skewed to the disadvantage of the lowest paid, and is about to get even worse when Osbourne's budget changes are implemented. However, perhaps that is a debate for another thread.

What I do know is that the disappearance of Sunday and evening bus services after 18.30 around here have made recruitment that bit harder for my employer.

And that's part of the problem. Sunday services are now increasingly left to commercial provision. There's sufficient trade for the 8/9 hour period but if that goes, then you may have 10% additional trade but that's knackered if to service that you have 33% additional cost.

Of course, the payment of premiums to staff was commonplace when Sunday opening came in. NEXT paid time and a half - now they pay standard time, so I concur with your views of what will happen. I fear, as with evening services when extended licensing hours came in, that it will fragment and dilute traffic

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are you sure this was a TfL service and, if so, how long ago was this?

Yes, it was the 411 West Molesey to Kingston, run then by Transdev London United, it was 2002-2003-ish. There was a rival Surrey County Council funded route which stopped closer to my house, but that didn't run on Sundays anyway, and required a second mortgage to pay the fare.

 

[radamfi]

Yes, it was the 411 West Molesey to Kingston, run then by Transdev London United, it was 2002-2003-ish. There was a rival Surrey County Council funded route which stopped closer to my house, but that didn't run on Sundays anyway, and required a second mortgage to pay the fare.

Now the first 411 gets into Kingston at 0753.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Now the first 411 gets into Kingston at 0753.

I had a feeling that it'd be easier now... But the big question is, are those hexagonal Tear-off "saver" tickets still available, and would they still reduce my fare by 50%?