Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[QueensCurve]

Just ask yourself this question......Which TOC runs the services on the Cumbrian Coast line.

True, and for that reason I don't see it happening on the Cumbrian Coast itself.

But delays/cancellations to electrification may create a requirement for more DMUs if only in the short term.

 

[QueensCurve]

Various Fire & Rescue services for use in training exercises...

Very droll.

Redundanmt Tridents and B727s found themselves much in demand at airfields for precisely this purpose

 

[Clarence Yard]

Possibly so. In using these for a few years on some branches would then at least allow GW to start some of the long promised cascades. Although I can still see them having issues with capacity in the future when they reduce themselves down to just 150/2s and 158s. I can see these doing reasonably well on some of the Cornish Branches for example - 3/4 cars for St Ives, 2/3 cars for the Looe Valley Branch? Both close to Depots, both fairly short runs and both release a sprinter for the Mainline.

Not GWR, deffo. No need for them as the cascade has been sorted and now that the D319 is potentially around, that cascade could get even more interesting.

 

[Bevan Price]

Re: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2826554#post2826554

I don't think it kills Class 230 any more than an early fatal fire on the launch pad killed the Apollo Moon Landings.

Clearly there will be teething problems for a project of this type and they can be rectified. Any safety concerns will have to be laid to rest.

Since I haven't commented on the project before I will do so here.

While many have decried the project, I think it is potentially a good idea.

The trains are London's cast-offs but they are in good nick. When I have traveled on them I have found them comfortable and to have good ambiance.

Adverse comment has been made on the top speed of 60mph. The trains could be of value however on rural routes where the ruling limit is only 60mph That would include, for example, the Cumbrian coast. Moreover if they have enough installed power they could improve journey times with greater acceleration.
.

A snag is that some of the Cumbrian Coast trains work through to Lancaster & Preston, and having 60 mph on parts of the WCML would not be a good idea - you would probably lose one path per hour if that hour included a Carlisle - Barrow - Preston service.

 

[Roark]

Let's hope the structure hasn't been softened by the heat from the fire and it not safe to use.

 

[asylumxl]

Let's hope the structure hasn't been softened by the heat from the fire and it not safe to use.

Diesel doesn't burn that hot..

 

[QueensCurve]

A snag is that some of the Cumbrian Coast trains work through to Lancaster & Preston, and having 60 mph on parts of the WCML would not be a good idea - you would probably lose one path per hour if that hour included a Carlisle - Barrow - Preston service.

That is true. If it came to pass it would have to do the 2 short hops Carnforth to Hest Bank and Morecambe S Junction to Lancaster.

There are however a lot of secondary routes limited to 60mph where they might have a role.

 

[DenmarkRail]

That is true.

There are however a lot of secondary routes limited to 60mph where they might have a role.

St Ives line?

 

[Roark]

Diesel doesn't burn that hot..

Heating structural aluminium extrusions, specially heat treated to obtain high strength, above 120C can lead to softening if heated long enough. The higher the temperature the shorter the time to soften. Diesel fires under Turbostars have reduced the strength to less than one third of the original proof strength, which has required the extrusion to be cut out and replaced.

 

[47802]

People are talking about Northern yet again despite the fact the Northern franchise agreement doesn't include D trains, and Northern now appear to be looking at some Bi-mode 319's.

People keep talking GWR, yet those in the know regarding GWR both on this forum and others say there are no plans to use D trains on GWR.

I really love this thread we are now what page 295 where the same stuff is just repeated over and over and over and over again.:roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

People are talking about Northern yet again despite the fact the Northern franchise agreement doesn't include D trains, and Northern now appear to be looking at some Bi-mode 319's.

People keep talking GWR, yet those in the know regarding GWR both on this forum and others say there are no plans to use D trains on GWR.

I really love this thread we are now what page 295 where the same stuff is just repeated over and over and over and over again.:roll:

As you will be very much aware, up to the award of the latest Northern franchise with details of their rolling stock requirements, we have been subjected for years on this website with "darn sarf" website members making suggestions of old rolling stock, unwanted by other areas, being sent to Northern.

Old habits die hard...

 

[childwallblues]

It's relative, and yes the 230 may not be anywhere near a 700, 345, or even Electrostar - but when the alternative is a hugely overloaded Pacer or other decrepit 40 year old 1 to 2 car British Rail ****box, Vivarail's 230 is a superb train.

There is a place for it on overcrowded branch lines.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As you will be very much aware, up to the award of the latest Northern franchise with details of their rolling stock requirements, we have been subjected for years on this website with "darn sarf" website members making suggestions of old rolling stock, unwanted by other areas, being sent to Northern.

Patrick McLoughlin (late of this parish) only promised to "get rid of the Pacers" at Northern.
There's nothing to stop the DfT agreeing to class 230s being leased, if the business case is there.
What it said in the Northern ITT is now irrelevant, it's what is in the franchise agreement which matters.

The Cumbrian situation might arise from not being able to end the expensive loco-hauled operation without acquiring more stock.

 

[northwichcat]

Patrick McLoughlin (late of this parish) only promised to "get rid of the Pacers" at Northern.

When he was doing a press conference in Manchester someone asked him if Northern would be getting old Underground trains and he replied with a firm no.

What it said in the Northern ITT is now irrelevant, it's what is in the franchise agreement which matters.

Which requires Northern to withdraw the Pacers and 153s and introduce additional Sprinters, alongside 170s and new 195s. Northern are also required to source additional DMUs by 2022 which have to be equivalent in quality and performance to refurbished 170s. Other than Turbostars 175s, 185s or more 195s could all meet that requirement but 230s or more Sprinters would not.

 

[D365]

As you will be very much aware, up to the award of the latest Northern franchise with details of their rolling stock requirements, we have been subjected for years on this website with "darn sarf" website members making suggestions of old rolling stock, unwanted by other areas, being sent to Northern.

Old habits die hard...

My opinion is that as long as brand-new rolling stock is bought in, cascaded stock can be just as effective for boosting capacity. For one thing, I wouldn't have a problem with seeing several Class 230 units in the South Yorkshire area for peak hour service.

It's somewhat off-topic here, but what are your thoughts on the Class 319 diesel conversion proposal?

 

[43021HST]

People are talking about Northern yet again despite the fact the Northern franchise agreement doesn't include D trains, and Northern now appear to be looking at some Bi-mode 319's.

People keep talking GWR, yet those in the know regarding GWR both on this forum and others say there are no plans to use D trains on GWR.

Hmm perhaps the routes covered by these franchises, have the best applications for the Class 230. Especially with the Windsor and Eton Branch, Marlow and Henley Branches being left out of the GWML electrification for now.

Hmm I wonder if the Princes Risborough - Aylesbury, would be good contender.

The units would be most suited to commuter branch lines, rather than some of the more rural lines like the St Ives, Looe branches, as surely the original intention of the D stock was for high capacity loads. 8 doors pair car is somewhat wasted on Farmer Palmer making his weekly shopping trip into town.

 

[urpert]

Hmm perhaps the routes covered by these franchises, have the best applications for the Class 230. Especially with the Windsor and Eton Branch, Marlow and Henley Branches being left out of the GWML electrification for now.

Hmm I wonder if the Princes Risborough - Aylesbury, would be good contender.

What's wrong with the 165s that have been successfully serving the Thames Valley branches for the past 25 years?

 

[najaB]

The units would be most suited to commuter branch lines, rather than some of the more rural lines like the St Ives, Looe branches, as surely the original intention of the D stock was for high capacity loads. 8 doors pair car is somewhat wasted on Farmer Palmer making his weekly shopping trip into town.

As covered earlier in the thread, Vivarail can vary the door layout to meet a TOC's requirements.

 

[D365]

What's wrong with the 165s that have been successfully serving the Thames Valley branches for the past 25 years?

The fact that there is a national shortage of suburban diesel units, and that once the Class 387s are fully introduced, the remaining Thames Valley Turbos will be somewhat of a microfleet.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Hmm perhaps the routes covered by these franchises, have the best applications for the Class 230. Especially with the Windsor and Eton Branch, Marlow and Henley Branches being left out of the GWML electrification for now.

Hmm I wonder if the Princes Risborough - Aylesbury, would be good contender.

The units would be most suited to commuter branch lines, rather than some of the more rural lines like the St Ives, Looe branches, as surely the original intention of the D stock was for high capacity loads. 8 doors pair car is somewhat wasted on Farmer Palmer making his weekly shopping trip into town.

Please. I will repeat. These things are not going on GWR. If the residual Turbos get released, there is far more likelihood of this happening as a result of D319 introduction, which is being very closely looked at.

 

[furnessvale]

When he was doing a press conference in Manchester someone asked him if Northern would be getting old Underground trains and he replied with a firm no.

Any politician worth his salt can easily convince himself, if not the public, that rail vehicles taken out of service and thoroughly rebuilt are not "old underground trains".

 

[D365]

Any politician worth his salt can easily convince himself, if not the public, that rail vehicles taken out of service and thoroughly rebuilt are not "old underground trains".

According to Vivarail, the only parts that they [the Class 230 units] retain from the original D Stock is the bodyshell and bogies.

Although they've (debateably) reused the seating layout in the driving cars.

 

[Bantamzen]

People are talking about Northern yet again despite the fact the Northern franchise agreement doesn't include D trains, and Northern now appear to be looking at some Bi-mode 319's.

People keep talking GWR, yet those in the know regarding GWR both on this forum and others say there are no plans to use D trains on GWR.

I really love this thread we are now what page 295 where the same stuff is just repeated over and over and over and over again.:roll:

There does seem to be a desire from some members to see 230s deployed on Northern routes regardless of the considerable amount of investment being made in the new 195/331s. I can't imagine how Arriva after all their publicity about said units would be able to convince anyone that the 230s would be the brand new trains promised. One of the prime arguments made by the 230 supporters is that people would be grateful for any extra capacity offered by them, ignoring that the basic, cheapest configuration is the standard longitudinal seating of the ex-D stock. Any other higher seating configuration would cost more and bring the final price much closer to that of a new unit. So I put it to these members that the travelling public would not be grateful of fewer seats per carriage, and would see through the hype and see the 230s for what they really are, a cheap(ish) and slow temporary solution, ironically almost exactly the same as the units they are supposed to replace.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's somewhat off-topic here, but what are your thoughts on the Class 319 diesel conversion proposal?

There is an existing thread on that very subject where postings of opinion can be made if so desired, without the need for making an off-topic posting on this particular thread.

Come to think of it, I remain totally convinced that the forum administrators and the forum moderators would rejoice if, as part of any New Year resolutions by website members, that off-topic postings were no longer made by contributors to any threads on this website.

 

[QueensCurve]

When he was doing a press conference in Manchester someone asked him if Northern would be getting old Underground trains and he replied with a firm no.

What politicians say in the run up to an election should perhaps not be taken as evidence of what will happen afterwards.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

According to Vivarail, the only parts that they [the Class 230 units] retain from the original D Stock is the bodyshell and bogies.

Would you agree that the reuse of both bodyshells and bogies are not an inconsiderable part of any conversion project. If those bodyshells had to be new fabrications and new bogies purchased, what percentage of cost would then have to be added to the unit costings?

 

[D365]

There is an existing thread on that very subject where postings of opinion can be made if so desired, without the need for making an off-topic posting on this particular thread.

My apologies, I had completely forgotten about the thread in question.

The reason that I had asked this question was because the 319 'Flex' proposal is a very similar concept, albeit one that would result in an EDMU 'bi-mode' rather than the simple DEMU conversion of the Class 230.

 

[bramling]

Would you agree that the reuse of both bodyshells and bogies are not an inconsiderable part of any conversion project. If those bodyshells had to be new fabrications and new bogies purchased, what percentage of cost would then have to be added to the unit costings?

It's worth noting that the bogies are relatively new, if I remember correctly the whole fleet received new bogies in the early 2000s.

 

[furnessvale]

Would you agree that the reuse of both bodyshells and bogies are not an inconsiderable part of any conversion project. If those bodyshells had to be new fabrications and new bogies purchased, what percentage of cost would then have to be added to the unit costings?

You seem to be agreeing that reuse of perfectly good components could save considerable amounts of money.........surely not!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have just looked at the latest NEWS part of the Vivarail website and in that article dated 30th December 2016 concerning the fire, one part of that statement says....

"Vivarail regrets that the planned trial on the Coventry to Nuneaton line will be postponed"