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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

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fredk

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Loool!! :lol: I knew something like this was gonna happen! After all, using a Transit Engine was a total dunce! Death to Vivafail, perhaps (sorry Viva, thought you were cute before)?



The Fail has reported just now?? I thought they'd be there with the cameras on the roll at the direct scene. Gosh, I need to read it now!

Vivarail put a lot of effort into re-engineering these units to provide a cheap train which improves peoples journeys in terms of comfort, crowding, and with little investment. They have achieved a lot and are hardly a failure of a company despite a small issue.
 
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Eastwestjct

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As far as I recall, a carriage interior is supposed to withstand penetration by smoke or fire for a duration of at least 30 minutes.

But would you wait 29minutes before leaving the carriage?

There are many classes of train which have never had a fire at one time or another
 

J-2739

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Vivarail put a lot of effort into re-engineering these units to provide a cheap train which improves peoples journeys in terms of comfort, crowding, and with little investment. They have achieved a lot and are hardly a failure of a company despite a small issue.

Well, their intentions were good, but that doesn't mean the train itself was great...
 

D365

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Well, their intentions were good, but that doesn't mean the train itself was great...

You don't like the concept? Fine. However I think you got a bit overexcited with your previous posting...
 

D365

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But would you wait 29minutes before leaving the carriage?

There are many classes of train which have never had a fire at one time or another

No, obviously the intention would be that all passengers are evacuated or moved to a different coach (if unsafe to evacuate) as swiftly as possible.
 

fgwrich

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Loool!! :lol: I knew something like this was gonna happen! After all, using a Transit Engine was a total dunce! Death to Vivafail, perhaps (sorry Viva, thought you were cute before)?!

Hardly a very mature post is it? Ok, so you don't like the concept of revitasling these D stock units but it's hardly fair to say Adrian Shooters team has completely failed and the project is rubbish just because of one engine fire - how do you know it wasn't the fault of Ford? Are they rubbish because one of their engines has caught fire?

And I think you'll find a lot of Automotive engines have many applications outside of road going vehicles. A lot of Hovercrafts are VAG powered.

And are you going to come up with a better solution? All within the timescales of Shooters team?

Hopefully Viva will bounce back from this set back in this very innovative project. Shame to see it happen but at least it's happened in the testing phase.
 

WatcherZero

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And if all goes to the usual form, that firefighter will be doing more damage with his water than the fire caused! :(

Well the fire service did report using cutting tools to reach the fire as well.

Hes likely not wearing a respirator because hes just spraying water to cool it down after the fire has been extinguished.
 

randyrippley

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I don't like the idea of these units going into service: they're the wrong kind of solution. However a fire like this on what is essentially a research prototype is a non-event. If anything these kind of events are an expected part of the learning curve of any new vehicle design. Compare it to the rate at which buses catch fire (especially for instance Enviro 200s.............) My guess it'll be down to a servicing f'up which won't be repeated.
The only serious concern is who was the fool who decided to test the train on a live route? It should have been tested at Old Dalby or a preserved line for six months before being allowed anywhere near a real service route
 

8089

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Got something to salvage after pouring water onto the fire than just letting it burn and have nothing left.
 

J-2739

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Hardly a very mature post is it? Ok, so you don't like the concept of revitasling these D stock units but it's hardly fair to say Adrian Shooters team has completely failed and the project is rubbish just because of one engine fire - how do you know it wasn't the fault of Ford? Are they rubbish because one of their engines has caught fire?

And I think you'll find a lot of Automotive engines have many applications outside of road going vehicles. A lot of Hovercrafts are VAG powered. phase.

First of all, my post was perfectly obvious a half joke, and wasn't literal. And if you read my other post, it says that they had good intentions.

It's given them a reputation now. I don't think most were happy about receiving an ex-tube train as compensation in the first place. But now they know that the D Trains have caught fire on their first go, it's enough for them to make a big party out of it. It's not like TOCs/Leasing Groups wouldn't place orders on these, but it wouldn't be popular.

I'm perfectly aware that Automotive Engines are applied to other uses. In fact, they can be modified for the marine environment.

So because I dislike the train, I all of a sudden have to be assigned with the task of designing a better solution? Thanks for that! :roll:

Otherwise, I agree with you that I hope they jump back to their two feet, and continue to expand their reaches of modifying old trains into new life. For some reason, I do feel sorry for them, looking at their website. They obviously have good intentions.
 
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fredk

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Well, their intentions were good, but that doesn't mean the train itself was great...

It's relative, and yes the 230 may not be anywhere near a 700, 345, or even Electrostar - but when the alternative is a hugely overloaded Pacer or other decrepit 40 year old 1 to 2 car British Rail ****box, Vivarail's 230 is a superb train.
 

Blindtraveler

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This is sad news indeed.

I know opinion is divided here on these units but the consept is still good and if theyve picked the wrong engine then surely better to find out now than when 30 or so are chugging around on the South Wales Metro?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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If that were to happen would it also apply to other EMUs being converted to bi-modes?

Wait till we get the first fire on an IEP...

I remember the first A320 crashing into a forest on test, and thinking that was the end of the line for it (and maybe Airbus).
However, the crash was quickly put down to "pilot error" and the A32x series has had vast orders since.
It is now arguably the most successful aircraft of its type.
 

Gareth Marston

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All folk need to do know is show said picture of "decrepit ex Tube train on fire" to raise headlines and frighten local stakeholders about London bias/ private operators wanting cheap trains etc Shooter is probably drowning his sorrows as we post.....

Shooter got the nod on this being a "solution" from inside DfT then the Torys got cold feet before 2015 election about not investing in rail in North of England - no one is going to put up with it being foist on them now.

I'm just waiting on the other DfT specified train going wrong- on fire Bi mode IEP on Whiteball Bank as its diesel engines couldn't cope with the strain anyone?
 

SPADTrap

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Wait till we get the first fire on an IEP...

I remember the first A320 crashing into a forest on test, and thinking that was the end of the line for it (and maybe Airbus).
However, the crash was quickly put down to "pilot error" and the A32x series has had vast orders since.
It is now arguably the most successful aircraft of its type.


Don't go there! :)
 

ac6000cw

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Let us not forget that the huge fleet of what were arguably the most useful and flexible trains we ever had were powered by bus engines.
? What were they then?

I suspect we're talking about the 'Mk1' BR DMUs, mostly powered by British United Traction 150 hp 6-cylinder horizontal bus engines (2 per power car).

The Kenilworth fire is a bit of a setback for Vivarail, but I hope they bounce back soon - the project deserves at least a decent service trial.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Vivarail put a lot of effort into re-engineering these units to provide a cheap train which improves peoples journeys in terms of comfort, crowding, and with little investment. They have achieved a lot and are hardly a failure of a company despite a small issue.

In what respect have they "achieved a lot"? Just one unit produced which is still in its trials period.
 

jopsuk

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Porterbrook will of course look at this to see what can be learned but I doubt it will slow them much. Boeing's 787 battery fires didn't slow the Airbus A350 program much as they quickly worked out their design for the battery arrangements had already accounted for the issue Boeing had (stacking a massive amount of Li-Ion battery in a confined space with poor cooling). It may be the porterbrook design is ok- after all they have longer, emptier, underfloor spaces to work with. The 230 required the engines to be fitted under carriages that already had full traction equipment.
 

43096

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In what respect have they "achieved a lot"? Just one unit produced which is still in its trials period.

Agreed.

So far we have one train that is much later than promised, is expensive for what it is, and that is now fire damaged.
 

D365

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In what respect have they "achieved a lot"? Just one unit produced which is still in its trials period.

Bearing in mind that Vivarail are not one of the 'established' rolling stock manufacturers/remanufacturers, and have effectively built a working demonstrator unit from scratch, I'd say that's quite impressive.

As others have said, we will have to wait for news of the investigation, as and when the results are analysed.
 

BestWestern

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Apologies of this has already been covered, but is this thing fitted with any sort of engine fire suppression equipment? Most/all 'heavy' DMUs have internal 'fire bottles', which will essentially swamp the engine with foam if the fire system is activated. I would presume that with an 'off the shelf' van engine, such a system does not exist? I would imagine the RAIB will take an interest in what, if any, fire precautions are in place on the 230 unit.
 

Bertie the bus

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All folk need to do know is show said picture of "decrepit ex Tube train on fire" to raise headlines and frighten local stakeholders about London bias/ private operators wanting cheap trains etc Shooter is probably drowning his sorrows as we post.....

Shooter got the nod on this being a "solution" from inside DfT then the Torys got cold feet before 2015 election about not investing in rail in North of England - no one is going to put up with it being foist on them now.

I doubt anybody, passengers that is, wanted them anyway. The fact a councillor from Wolverhampton did just goes to show that those calling for greater devolution should be careful what they wish for.
 

najaB

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Apologies of this has already been covered, but is this thing fitted with any sort of engine fire suppression equipment?
I'd be very surprised if it doesn't. Though, that said, I guess that making the engine bay a fire-resistant box (more so than usual) might suffice.
 

D365

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I doubt anybody, passengers that is, wanted them anyway. The fact a councillor from Wolverhampton did just goes to show that those calling for greater devolution should be careful what they wish for.

What, you're saying that they would rather keep the inadequate Class 153?
 
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