Bought ticket at first opportunity, still got a penalty fare

[Bastillefallof]

Merry Christmas everyone. Looking for advise on appealing against a penalty fare I've recently received taking a journey I take most days. The only difference today was that It was a little later in the morning.

So I get the train from Bedminster with no ticket machine, I get on the train where there is only standing room and no ticket inspector for the duration of the short journey. I leave the train at Filton Abbey Wood and go to get a ticket from the machine. The person getting the ticket in front of me was having an issue so I went to the booth and asked for a ticket from one of the staff.

On hearing the journey I wanted to pay for he decided I had ample time to seek out a ticket inspector on the train. I said there clearly wasn't one on there, there were two carriages on the service, what am I meant to do? He suggested I went and knocked on the cabin doors trying to find an inspector. I said that's unreasonable and no where does it suggest passengers do that?! His other argument was that the ticket inspectors aren't there everyday at that time so that means I may have not paid so you get a penalty fare irrespective of the conditions of your journey you've just just taken based on his assumptions.
So I've received the penalty fare which came in the post, stating it's the cost of the fare £3.80 then costs of £80.

Buying from the ticket inspector was my first opportunity as there was no one present on the train. Is this clear grounds to appeal?

 

[exile]

A Penalty Fare is £20 not £80 - are you absolutely sure that this was a Penalty Fare? What is the heading on the letter you've been sent?

 

[najaB]

Buying from the ticket inspector was my first opportunity as there was no one present on the train. Is this clear grounds to appeal?

No ticket machine or open ticket office at the start of your journey? Then no penalty fare.

 

[father_jack]

Merry Christmas everyone. Looking for advise on appealing against a penalty fare I've recently received taking a journey I take most days. The only difference today was that It was a little later in the morning.

So I get the train from Bedminster with no ticket machine, I get on the train where there is only standing room and no ticket inspector for the duration of the short journey. I leave the train at Filton Abbey Wood and go to get a ticket from the machine. The person getting the ticket in front of me was having an issue so I went to the booth and asked for a ticket from one of the staff.

On hearing the journey I wanted to pay for he decided I had ample time to seek out a ticket inspector on the train. I said there clearly wasn't one on there, there were two carriages on the service, what am I meant to do? He suggested I went and knocked on the cabin doors trying to find an inspector. I said that's unreasonable and no where does it suggest passengers do that?! His other argument was that the ticket inspectors aren't there everyday at that time so that means I may have not paid so you get a penalty fare irrespective of the conditions of your journey you've just just taken based on his assumptions.
So I've received the penalty fare which came in the post, stating it's the cost of the fare £3.80 then costs of £80.

Buying from the ticket inspector was my first opportunity as there was no one present on the train. Is this clear grounds to appeal?

You got a UFN. Unpaid Fare notice. Which you didn't pay it would seem. (You get 21 days to pay). That's why it's gone up to £83.80.

Aside why would you go to a ticket machine at Filton to buy a ticket "from" somewhere ? The RPIs,RPO's/TE's (Revenue Protection Inspectors/Officers/ Ticket Examiners) at Filton are usually on the bridges and the ticket machine is right by the exit to the MOD compound......

The peeps on here will give you good and fair advice but it might be best to give the whole story.

 

[bnm]

Dates, times, correspondence received (scrubbed of personal information) would help inform help and responses here.

That said, I can well believe GWR going straight to the £80 administration fee in first letter. They've done so with three people I'm helping appeal a threat of prosecution.They couldn't buy the tickets they wanted at origin station (GroupSave) and were each written up by an RPI for ticketless travel.

 

[najaB]

You got a UFN. Unpaid Fare notice. Which you didn't pay it would seem. (You get 21 days to pay). That's why it's gone up to £83.80.

Are UFNs sent by post? I thought they were issued on the spot.

 

[father_jack]

Are UFNs sent by post? I thought they were issued on the spot.

They are issued on the spot. I would reckon from the scant info provided is that it wasn't paid, hence the £80 admin fee.....

 

[najaB]

They are issued on the spot. I would reckon from the scant info provided is that it wasn't paid, hence the £80 admin fee.....

There wasn't mention of being given any paperwork at the time though.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Merry Christmas everyone. Looking for advise on appealing against a penalty fare I've recently received taking a journey I take most days. The only difference today was that It was a little later in the morning.

So I get the train from Bedminster with no ticket machine, I get on the train where there is only standing room and no ticket inspector for the duration of the short journey. I leave the train at Filton Abbey Wood and go to get a ticket from the machine. The person getting the ticket in front of me was having an issue so I went to the booth and asked for a ticket from one of the staff.

On hearing the journey I wanted to pay for he decided I had ample time to seek out a ticket inspector on the train. I said there clearly wasn't one on there, there were two carriages on the service, what am I meant to do? He suggested I went and knocked on the cabin doors trying to find an inspector. I said that's unreasonable and no where does it suggest passengers do that?! His other argument was that the ticket inspectors aren't there everyday at that time so that means I may have not paid so you get a penalty fare irrespective of the conditions of your journey you've just just taken based on his assumptions.
So I've received the penalty fare which came in the post, stating it's the cost of the fare £3.80 then costs of £80.

Buying from the ticket inspector was my first opportunity as there was no one present on the train. Is this clear grounds to appeal?

My usual reply to the suggestion of needing to find the guard to ask what would happen if a large number of people needed to do the same, would they really expect a train length queue of people waiting for the guard.

I am surprised though, GWR around the Bristol area tend to be fairly sensible with stuff like this in my experience.

As for the "inspectors aren't always at Filton so you may not have paid", surely that is GWR's fault for not providing adequate facilities?

 

[cuccir]

Bedminster is not, according to GWR's "buy before you board" leaflet a penalty fare station. This sounds like a request for the fare plus costs to avoid further investigation, which Neil Williams describes as a 'penalty fake' above.

If all is as you told then you did nothing wrong. Reply describing the journey as you did, and state that you weren't allowed an opportunity to buy a ticket at Filton. Enclose a cheque for the to ticket as payment for the journey made.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The caveat being, as father jack suggests, that if any of this is not true and you could have purchased on board, then clearly the best option is to pay up

 

[Bastillefallof]

@father_jack scant info? What more would you like to know. I'll post the letter received later on tonight to clear any of this up.

As bnm said it's made up of the administration costs and not headed as an UFN.

Thank you for all your replies so far. As stated before I make this journey most days from the same station buying a ticket from the same place; at the station which is usually my first opportunity, unless it's on the train. The only difference this time was the time of day at 10:00am.

All the advise given and what I discussed with the revenue officer points at him being in the wrong, being over zealous in wanting to issue a penalty fare.

 

[Paul Kelly]

What is the ticket you usually buy from the machine at Filton Abbey Wood? What prints on it as the "from" station and the "to" station, and is it a single or return?

 

[Bastillefallof]

What is the ticket you usually buy from the machine at Filton Abbey Wood? What prints on it as the "from" station and the "to" station, and is it a single or return?

All that information is in the original post. Why would knowing if it's a single or return help?

 

[najaB]

All that information is in the original post.

No, it is not.

Why would knowing if it's a single or return help?

If you don't want useful advice then don't answer.

 

[furlong]

And were you returning later in the day? The problem here is where the company has chosen not to allow its machines to sell you a ticket from another station, your only option is always to use the ticket office at your destination, or else waste money buying a return for a journey in the opposite direction and then discarding the outward portion (which cannot be used after the use of the return portion). (Better to consider season ticket, purchase in advance, or if there is a ticket office queue but not a machine queue buy online on mobile app with immediate collection from machine.)

So there are two questions being considered on this thread:
1) The rights and wrongs of what happened on the day concerned;
2) Whether your normal habitual behaviour exposes you to the risk of prosecution for deliberate fare evasion, and if so, what you need to do differently to avoid this in future.

 

[Chew Chew]

All that information is in the original post. Why would knowing if it's a single or return help?

The posters on here can offer a great wealth of knowledge to assist you so drop the attitude and give them the details they are asking for if you would like them to help you.

 

[Bastillefallof]

This is the letter for reference. It's actually a pre-court settlement offer, not a penalty fare as described earlier.

@furlong I see your point in buying a season ticket or weekly ticket but I don't always need one so it's not always financially viable.

The only way to avoid this situation is to buy the ticket from the machine (if it's working) because the ticket inspector standing 10ft from it may be a revenue officer as well and might want to ticket some people today.

@Indigo2 The two stations would be Bedminster and Filton Abbey Wood on the ticket, as I wasn't able to purchase a ticket I genuinely don't see how that helps? Apologies if anyones picking up attitude there genuinely isn't.

 

[furlong]

In general terms, for a byelaw prosecution to succeed, the origin station needs to have had ticket issuing facilities available and the offence would be completed upon entering the train. For a (more serious) RORA offence, again in general terms, they would be looking for evidence that something you did or something you said to them proves that at some instant in time you showed "beyond reasonable doubt" that you were not intending to pay for the journey, and this is where all the complicated details would come into play. (Showing an intention to pay at a later instant in time does not cancel out an offence that could be proved for an earlier instant.) Heading to the ticket machine knowing that it is unable to sell you a ticket from another station? Ignoring a conductor who passed through the train selling tickets? Walking past revenue staff holding a ticket machine? Asking for the wrong ticket? Heading to an exit on a route that you know bypasses the ticket office? (Have you happened to keep any previous tickets that would show a solid history of always paying the correct fare? Or do you always pay using a card that might let them check what tickets you always buy?)

Before deciding how to respond, think very carefully about what evidence they might have. Generally, for each point of your journey, think "What reasonable things would an honest person who intended to purchase the correct ticket for their journey have done?" and compare that with what you did, and with what they know and could prove "beyond reasonable doubt".

 

[furlong]

So for the price they suggested, you can make the immediate problem go away very easily.

But they'll be back, and you'll meet them again. So any resolution ought to address the wider problem of why they believe you may have committed an offence (which is not clear from that letter or from what you have written here so far) and what you need to do differently in future, or else which of their procedures need to change if they have issued the letter incorrectly and whether there are other similar cases that need putting right.

 

[furlong]

The only way to avoid this situation is to buy the ticket from the machine (if it's working)

But are you sure the machine sells the right ticket? This was at the root of the questions earlier up the thread. I've not personally encountered any GWR machine that sell tickets from different origins, as you would require in this case. Your only option (in the absence of a letter from GWR authorising some special arrangement) would be to head directly to the ticket office, or to buy a more expensive return ticket from the machine and discard the unusable outward portion.

 

[najaB]

I wonder if this is a case where it would be better to decline gWr's kind offer of an out of court settlement and see what they do? If there is nothing omitted from the OP's story then I can't see how either a Byelaw or RoRA prosecution could be successful, if the attempt was defended.

 

[Greenback]

I agree. I would certainly not accept the offer if I were the OP, and I'd expect any legal action to fail. I also agree that paying the settlement will do nothing to alter things long term.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Send them a letter stating:

1) You were unable to purchase a ticket before boarding as there is no ticket machine or office at Bedminster (I'm assuming no office)
2) You were unable to purchase a ticket on board due to the cramped conditions on the train and the absence of a guard during the short journey.
3) In line with the Information in the National Conditions of Travel you attempted to buy a ticket at Filton. That request was refused and you have been reported for prosecution.

Enclose a cheque for the unpaid fare and that state that you now consider the matter closed. Should they wish to pursue their claim, you will defend any prosecution in the Magistrates' Court.

 

[simonw]

Send them a letter stating:

1) You were unable to purchase a ticket before boarding as there is no ticket machine or office at Bedminster (I'm assuming no office)
2) You were unable to purchase a ticket on board due to the cramped conditions on the train and the absence of a guard during the short journey.
3) In line with the Information in the National Conditions of Travel you attempted to buy a ticket at Filton. That request was refused and you have been reported for prosecution.

Enclose a cheque for the unpaid fare and that state that you now consider the matter closed. Should they wish to pursue their claim, you will defend any prosecution in the Magistrates' Court.

http://abcrailwayguide.uk/bmt-bedminster-railway-station/facilities#.WGKi0HqnzMI

Ticket Office

NO
Pre-purchase Collection

NO
Ticket Machine

NO
...

 

[DaleCooper]

Bastillefallof was there anything about your actions that day which might have given the mistaken impression that you were attempting to leave the station without buying a ticket? I ask this as it could be the basis for GWR's action and it would be useful for you to know beforehand what reason they might have for pursuing the matter.

 

[Paule23]

Send them a letter stating:

1) You were unable to purchase a ticket before boarding as there is no ticket machine or office at Bedminster (I'm assuming no office)
2) You were unable to purchase a ticket on board due to the cramped conditions on the train and the absence of a guard during the short journey.
3) In line with the Information in the National Conditions of Travel you attempted to buy a ticket at Filton. That request was refused and you have been reported for prosecution.

Enclose a cheque for the unpaid fare and that state that you now consider the matter closed. Should they wish to pursue their claim, you will defend any prosecution in the Magistrates' Court.

Given the information received from the OP I agree this is the most sensible course of action.

Any other comments about more information are basically implying the op is not telling the full truth and are not really helping. The op has posted the situation, the above gives good advice for the scenario described, job done.

 

[najaB]

Any other comments about more information are basically implying the op is not telling the full truth and are not really helping. The op has posted the situation, the above gives good advice for the scenario described, job done.

Sorry, but that is simply not the case. I have lost count of the number of people who have posted on the forum for advice who omitted crucial facts from their initial post - sometimes deliberately, sometimes by oversight. I can assure you that there are very solid grounds for the questions asked in this thread. None of the posters who have contributed have made any aspersions one way or the other about the OP's veracity.

 

[crehld]

Given the information received from the OP I agree this is the most sensible course of action.

Any other comments about more information are basically implying the op is not telling the full truth and are not really helping. The op has posted the situation, the above gives good advice for the scenario described, job done.

Saying you're going to defend a case in court is a big step and undertaking, and one those giving such advice tend to do carefully. There is no problem with checking the facts to make sure - indeed it seems prudent. There are, occasionally, those who make false accusations despite evidence to the contrary. My experience is such accusations tend to be far from implicit!!

 

[Deerfold]

Given the information received from the OP I agree this is the most sensible course of action.

Any other comments about more information are basically implying the op is not telling the full truth and are not really helping. The op has posted the situation, the above gives good advice for the scenario described, job done.

The OP originally said it was a Penalty Fare, but it was not.

I doubt the OP made this mistake deliberately, but knowing that changes the advice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The OP originally said it was a Penalty Fare, but it was not.

I doubt the OP made this mistake deliberately, but knowing that changes the advice.

Indeed so, a Penalty Fare can be appealed, this requires a slightly different approach as it is rather more serious.