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Carmarthen to Aberystwyth Reopening?

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PHILIPE

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Right now, Arriva Cross Country are planning to reduce from 3 coaches to 2 coaches some of the (mainly overloaded) class 170 trains on the Cardiff > Gloucester > Birmingham > Nottingham route. So, we are likely to be going backwards in terms of capacity on this route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Could not two 153’s be used with them splitting/joining at Pontarddulais? I understand that GWR will be hiving off some 153’s in a year or so. You would not know how many wish to go to Cardiff (or the east) rather than Swansea because no such service exists.

Where would you get the extra Class 153 from ? I'm sure that if any 153s did transfer from GWR there would be more pressing work for them do rather than rum from Pontardulais to Cardiff with only a negligible number of passengers.
 
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Where would you get the extra Class 153 from ? I'm sute that if any 153s did transfer from GWR there would be more pressing work for them do rather than rum from Pontardulais to Cardiff with only a negligible number of passengers.

The obvious place to split these hypothetical 153's would be under the care of the signalperson at Pantyffynon - under the safeguard of fixed signals etc...however not a realistic option as you would need to double up the train crew for the portion working , effectively 4 crew members for a 2 car train ...

Without going too far off tangent -and there are far better qualified people than me - but the HoW tends to feed into and out of Swansea , and the Carmarthen "flyover" option via the Swansea District line towards Cardiff serves a different and probably bigger overall market.

I do wonder , if the Cardiff employment hinterland is wider than we think - the Ebbw Vale line may well feed customers off the top end and beyond of the valleys due the fast links and what looks like safe parking , and (as I mentioned before) - some residents of the greater Swansea area are driving to Cardiff...?

Whatever - a considerably greater market than Tregaron to Aberystwyth , or Lampeter to Carmarthen (for work) .....
 

Llanigraham

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The obvious place to split these hypothetical 153's would be under the care of the signalperson at Pantyffynon - under the safeguard of fixed signals etc...however not a realistic option as you would need to double up the train crew for the portion working , effectively 4 crew members for a 2 car train ...

Without going too far off tangent -and there are far better qualified people than me - but the HoW tends to feed into and out of Swansea , and the Carmarthen "flyover" option via the Swansea District line towards Cardiff serves a different and probably bigger overall market.

I do wonder , if the Cardiff employment hinterland is wider than we think - the Ebbw Vale line may well feed customers off the top end and beyond of the valleys due the fast links and what looks like safe parking , and (as I mentioned before) - some residents of the greater Swansea area are driving to Cardiff...?

Whatever - a considerably greater market than Tregaron to Aberystwyth , or Lampeter to Carmarthen (for work) .....

Quite, and exactly what I said earlier.
 

70014IronDuke

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Quite, and exactly what I said earlier.

Indeed. But I have a sort of feeling that there could be a fairly good reason for the HoW feeding into and out of Swansea - like, er that is where the service has gone since time immemorial? :)

Rather than diverting the current HoW services to Cardiff, how about some additional trains from the more heavily populated southern end ie Ammanford, Pantyffynon etc, and running these to the capital.

If nobody has ever tried it (apart from the Eisteddfod specials, and I'm not sure if they are advertised to stop at such places?), well there is unlikely to be any traffic of significance to observe, is there? It could only be tested if a service were to be introduced.

But to bring this vaguely back OT, even without any additional HoW trains, a serious effort to improve the Cardiff - Carmarthen service, as suggested by Envoy, would be far more use of any monies spent than the nonsense of reopening Carmarthen-Aberystwyth.

And although a new station for Morriston might abstract some traditional traffic from Swansea High Street, i suspect most would be new journeys, abstracted from the M4.

It would take a lot more than GBP 0.3m, or course.
 
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Rhydgaled

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A good start would be to first upgrade the existing Cardiff-Carmarthen line. It currently takes 2 hours by train, or 1 hour 20 by road. It can actually be done in less than 1hr 20min by road, Google maps is telling me 1hr 13mins.

Nobody I know from Aber goes up from Cardiff by rail via Shrewsbury - they either get the bus all the way, or get the train to Carmarthen and then get the bus from there

Cardiff - Aber by bus = 3 hours.
By car = 2.5 hour

Cardiff - Carmarthen by train = 2 hours
Carmarthen - Aber by train = around 2 hours minimum surely
Cardiff - Aberystwyth by train = 4-5 hours?

That is not a competitive journey time.

Upgrading the Carmarthen-Swansea-Cardiff line would therefore be absolutely essential to making an eventual Cardiff-Aber train even remotely competitive to the bus or car and therefore economically viable, and would deliver benefits much quicker and for less investment than the reopening of the line, if say Cardiff-Carmarthen could be brought down to 1.5 or even 1 hour.
In fact such an improvement would benefit the entire of West Wales.

Have any improvements even been muted? A more logical Swansea-Carmarthen route would be to follow the existing M4 inland, and it always seems a farce for Swansea-Port Talbot trains to go via Neath, why reopen the Swansea Town Tawe-Crossing and have a new coastal line?
See my note (in red) added to your post. We certainly need some serious improvements for rail services to compete with that (or put a much lower speed limit on the roads). The TrawsLinkCymru group promoting the Carmarthen-Aberystwth project actually do state that they would like to see trains use the Swansea district line to cut the journey time to Cardiff, although in my opinion they are not sufficiently ambious, with a target journey time of 1hr 30mins between Carmarthen and Cardiff if I recall correctly. They don't really focus on that though, whereas I think they should be calling for Carmarthen-Cardiff upgrades as phase 1, Bangor-Caernarfon as phase 2 and possibly even Caernarfon-Porthmadog (not Afon-Wen as they propose) as phase 3 before getting to Carmarthen-Aberystwyth.

My view is that there should be Carmarthen-Cardiff express services calling only at Llanelli and Port Talbot Parkway (possibly a new Morriston Parkway station too, but nothing else). It needs somebody to find a load of additional 158s for the new W&B franchise though, as you can't cut Swansea services so the expresses would need to be additional services.

Track capacity is a bit limited between Cardiff and Bridgend though, with the Maesteg stoppers getting in the way of fast services, and just missing out station calls probably isn't enough by itself to make the rail offering fast enough to beat the car. Thus, if you are building new track for Carmarthen-Cardiff I would suggest a new, more-direct, route between Cardiff and Bridgend for fast services (effectively 4-tracking the section, since stoppers and freight would use the existing route via Pontyclun etc.). That new route would serve a much larger population, and hence have a much stronger case, than a new line following the M4 between the Swansea area and Carmarthen.

The black route (3 lane each way) new M4 south of Newport is desperately needed.
Correction, it desperately needs to be cancelled once and for all. Encouraging behavioural change (read: modal shift from private cars to public transport) requires careful use of 'carrots and sticks'. A second M4 around Newport is a carrot for motorists; exactly the opposite of what we need.

There MAY be an issue with the current M4, which is that incidents in the 2-lanes-each-way tunnels can cause lengthy closures of the M4 in one direction. In that case what we might need is a suitable diversionary route, but that must NOT be attractive as a normal travel route, to avoid generating more traffic. Perhaps one way of doing that would be to modify the tunnels so that if one has to be closed the other can be used with one lane in each direction, meaning the diversionary route doesn't have to take all the M4 traffic.

If Ken Skates were to look on Google Earth, he might like to zoom down on Aberystwyth and try to figure out how a re-built railway from Carmarthen is going to enter the town? Much of the Aberystwyth bit has been built upon. Pull down the yellow man for Streetview and you will see practically brand new houses built on the bed of the former railway. I wonder if the residents are aware that if the line were re-built that their homes might have to be demolished? The only alternative would surely be an expensive tunnel through the hill. So, the WG are going to spend £300,000 on consultants to figure this out?
There is another problem with getting into Aberystwyth, that most pepole seem to be ignoring. Whether you demolish houses to reopen the old route or tunnel through the hill, the railway would still have to cross the road which runs from the Morrisons roundabout into town. That would require a level crossing, and creating those is apparently forbidden (the borders railway in Scotland apparently has none, and the Portishead reopening project has had to site the proposed station in a less-than-ideal location in order to avoid one I believe).
 
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ruthtom010

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On modal shift, there is just a complete lack of proportionality. For every 100 people in south east Wales who work away from home and travel other than on foot, around 4-5 travel by bus, 2-3 by rail and the rest by car or van. Doubling rail use would soak up only a few years of road traffic growth - and only if this was all modal shift. Doubling rail use would be a very ambitious target. And in practice, if rail use doubled, some would of the modal shift would be from bus, and some of the journeys would be new ones.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Where would you get the extra Class 153 from ? I'm sure that if any 153s did transfer from GWR there would be more pressing work for them do rather than rum from Pontardulais to Cardiff with only a negligible number of passengers.

At the current point in time, what is the position regarding the time that the Class 153 units can remain in service?
 

Greenback

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P;ease can we keep this thread and this discussion on the topic of Carmarthen and Aberystwyth reopening?

I realise that questions about stock always overlap into other areas and routes - such is the nature of the beast - but let's keep at least one eye on the thread title!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Had there never been a rail service between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth, how likely does anyone think that any serious consideration would be made these days in opening a new railway line between those two settlements, noting the costs that would be accrued in doing so, when such a project would be competing for finance against all other transport projects, road, rail or air?
 

Greenback

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There would be no serious consideration given to building a line between these two towns these days. Back in the day, there was not much of an alternative for bringing goods in and out of rural locations. That was the real reason why most railways like this one were built, not really to move humans from place to place. Passenger traffic was very much a side issue.
 

Llanigraham

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Had there never been a rail service between Carmarthen and Aberystwyth, how likely does anyone think that any serious consideration would be made these days in opening a new railway line between those two settlements, noting the costs that would be accrued in doing so, when such a project would be competing for finance against all other transport projects, road, rail or air?

None what-so-ever!
 

ChiefPlanner

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There were plans to build a light railway from Llandeilo - Lampeter via Talley , (a sort of cut off to the above from the Central Wales) - even in 1904 , money could not be raised) - and a further attempt in 1920 saw it killed for good. Both he GWR and the LNWR were very lukewarm.

Had this been the case in the 1860's , the aforementioned line would not have been built though - even then the areas were deeply rural with an economy which was very local - no main / major cross country flows or minerals and coal. Carm - Aber limped along with a role of bringing in coal and food / consumer goods to the scattered population and gave social access to nearby towns and settlements. (a bit of holiday traffic) - much of this had dribbled away by the 1950's and certainly by the 1950's. GWR enterprise in long distance bulk milk to London almost certainly pro-longed the usefulness of the route.

So do we have today in the 21stC ? - none of the above - just political hot air.

(I did enjoy typing up this little summary of the Welsh economy - partly gleaned from D Parry-Jones nostalgic writings of the late 1940's)
 

edwin_m

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While many other rural lines were built to serve local traffic, the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line wasn't one of them. It was part of the Manchester and Milford Haven railway whose purpose was to link a major city to what could have been a major port. This quickly proved not to be viable, perhaps not surprisingly as Manchester had access to various nearer ports that didn't involve crossing mountain ranges. The route northwards from Carmarthen then made the best of a bad job by taking a sharp left at Strata Florida before it hit the serious hills, and re-routeing to Aberystwyth as the only half-worthwhile destination reachable with the available cash. Various sections further north were abandoned.

So it's probably true that the route should never have been built in the first place.
 
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ChiefPlanner

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While many other rural lines were built to serve local traffic, the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line wasn't one of them. It was part of the Manchester and Milford Haven railway whose purpose was to link a major city to what could have been a major port. This quickly proved not to be viable, perhaps not surprisingly as Manchester had access to various nearer ports that didn't involve crossing mountain ranges. The route northwards from Carmarthen then made the best of a bad job by taking a sharp left at Strata Florida before it hit the serious hills, and re-routeing to Aberystwyth as the only half-worthwhile destination reachable with the available cash. Various sections further north were abandoned.

So it's probably true that the route should never have been built in the first place.

Summarises it nicely - and of course (off topic) - the Manchester Ship Canal gave the city a far better sea-link than running over the empty hills of the Cambrian mountains....
 

Llanigraham

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While many other rural lines were built to serve local traffic, the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line wasn't one of them. It was part of the Manchester and Milford Haven railway whose purpose was to link a major city to what could have been a major port. This quickly proved not to be viable, perhaps not surprisingly as Manchester had access to various nearer ports that didn't involve crossing mountain ranges. The route northwards from Carmarthen then made the best of a bad job by taking a sharp left at Strata Florida before it hit the serious hills, and re-routeing to Aberystwyth as the only half-worthwhile destination reachable with the available cash. Various sections further north were abandoned.

So it's probably true that the route should never have been built in the first place.

Correct!
However, did you know that they actually started work on the tunnel under the massif between Devils Bridge and Llangurig? The earthworks for both ends of the tunnel were started and are still extant although well hidden in the forestry.
Just like several other lines in this locality they never made money when they were open, when the economics were much more "local", and they would never be justified now.
This scheme is an impossible pipe dream that needs putting to bed now (permanently!)
 

edwin_m

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Correct!
However, did you know that they actually started work on the tunnel under the massif between Devils Bridge and Llangurig? The earthworks for both ends of the tunnel were started and are still extant although well hidden in the forestry.
Just like several other lines in this locality they never made money when they were open, when the economics were much more "local", and they would never be justified now.
This scheme is an impossible pipe dream that needs putting to bed now (permanently!)

I think Wikipedia mentions some earthworks that were built but never used, but lacks any detail on where they were/are. The Llangurig branch, used by precisely one train, was part of the same scheme.
 

Tobbes

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I'd love to see the restoration of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line but the numbers would require very significant expansions of the universities at Lampeter and Aberystwyth, and commensurate population growth. Oh, and an alignment that could do Aberystwyth in about 2hrs / 2hrs 10 mins.

Whilst South Wales LGV isn't *exactly* what I had in mind... :roll: but Cardiff - Carmarthen in 50 mins, plus 1h 10 mins for the run up over the hill to Aberystwyth is broadly what you'd be looking for.

If it was non-stop via the Swansea District line, (or stopped Port Talbot, Morriston and Llanelli), what's the shortest time it could be done in a 125? I've no idea what the linespeeds are.
 

Llanigraham

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I think Wikipedia mentions some earthworks that were built but never used, but lacks any detail on where they were/are. The Llangurig branch, used by precisely one train, was part of the same scheme.

There are earthworks to just beyond Llangurig village, alongside the A44. The tunnel earthworks are not large and are well hidden in the Myherin Forest complex, and not easy to get to. I do have the MR for the north side, but there is no public access.

Stories locally is that 2 trains are alleged to have run part of the way from Penpontbren Junction; a contractors train that may have got as far as the outskirts of Llangurig, and a Royal Train that berthed overnight in the section immediately after the Junction.
(Sorry, off topic)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd love to see the restoration of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line but the numbers would require very significant expansions of the universities at Lampeter and Aberystwyth, and commensurate population growth. Oh, and an alignment that could do Aberystwyth in about 2hrs / 2hrs 10 mins.

Whilst South Wales LGV isn't *exactly* what I had in mind... :roll: but Cardiff - Carmarthen in 50 mins, plus 1h 10 mins for the run up over the hill to Aberystwyth is broadly what you'd be looking for.

If it was non-stop via the Swansea District line, (or stopped Port Talbot, Morriston and Llanelli), what's the shortest time it could be done in a 125? I've no idea what the linespeeds are.

You'd never get a 125 along the Branch!!
 

Bevan Price

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Carmarthen has a population of about 15,000. In some ways, it is lucky to still have a railway - plenty of larger towns have lost their railways. However, it is nowhere near large enough to justify spending lots of money on reopened (or new) railways.
 

D1009

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There would be no serious consideration given to building a line between these two towns these days. Back in the day, there was not much of an alternative for bringing goods in and out of rural locations. That was the real reason why most railways like this one were built, not really to move humans from place to place. Passenger traffic was very much a side issue.
To be fair though, the railway did lead to the building of the Pont Llanio creamery in 1937. New transport infrastructure can improve the local economy as has happened in other places, but in this case in 2016, I don't think there's much chance of anything being cost effective.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I'd love to see the restoration of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth line but the numbers would require very significant expansions of the universities at Lampeter and Aberystwyth, and commensurate population growth. Oh, and an alignment that could do Aberystwyth in about 2hrs / 2hrs 10 mins.

University students at both Aberystwyth and at Bangor will be aware that there are already existing railway connections to major areas from both those settlements.
 

krus_aragon

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While many other rural lines were built to serve local traffic, the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line wasn't one of them. It was part of the Manchester and Milford Haven railway whose purpose was to link a major city to what could have been a major port. This quickly proved not to be viable, perhaps not surprisingly as Manchester had access to various nearer ports that didn't involve crossing mountain ranges. The route northwards from Carmarthen then made the best of a bad job by taking a sharp left at Strata Florida before it hit the serious hills, and re-routeing to Aberystwyth as the only half-worthwhile destination reachable with the available cash. Various sections further north were abandoned.

So it's probably true that the route should never have been built in the first place.

Don't forget that one of the major sources of traffic that was envisaged for the M&M was cotton imported from the USA. Unfortunately there was a civil war going on in America at the time...
 

Greenback

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The role that the line once fulfilled no longer exists. It's as simple as that. The efforts that have been made to try and find another role for a reinstated railway are to be admired, but are doomed to failure.
 

Gareth Marston

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The role that the line once fulfilled no longer exists. It's as simple as that. The efforts that have been made to try and find another role for a reinstated railway are to be admired, but are doomed to failure.

Whilst I agree it's not anywhere near a priority we must not forget that our wonderful Welsh politicians are involved and can do the oddest things. There is a bit of "we must have one" after the Borders reopening about.

The Welsh Government can't sort out the simplest and most obvious priorities on the existing network such as acquiring enough rolling stock /ddi compliance but has the capability to go for a grandstand project.
 

deltic

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I've looked at this thread so often I'm now getting banner adverts for Tesco at Aberystwyth appearing!
 

Doctor Fegg

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The role that the line once fulfilled no longer exists. It's as simple as that.

That is true, but as a general principle lines can and do take on new roles. I live on a one-time rural branch line that now serves as a very busy commuter route to London, inter alia.

I'm struggling to think of a new role for Carmarthen-Aberystwyth, though.
 

Mordac

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If the point of this is to restore a link between North and South Wales that wouldn't require going through England, looking at old maps shows a second link going through Radnorshire, connecting into what is now the Heart of Wales Line near Builth Wells. I assume the geography there is even worse, though?
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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If the point of this is to restore a link between North and South Wales that wouldn't require going through England, looking at old maps shows a second link going through Radnorshire, connecting into what is now the Heart of Wales Line near Builth Wells. I assume the geography there is even worse, though?

Was that the Mid-Wales Railway from Llanidloes to Brecon?
 
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