Class 317 future

[jopsuk]

You do realise that 455s are 750V DC and 317s are 25kV AC, don't you? They are fundamentally different electrically even if they look similar from a bodyshell perspective. Class 150/2s look similar as well...

317s (except for 1) have DC motors- what's the voltage at the motor? Is it 0-750V?

 

[Geeves]

Had a quick look on Google. Both 317s and 319s have the same GEC G315BZ motors albeit the 317 has slightly less power. The 455 has EE507 DC motors.

As has been said all these EMUs have DC traction motors. The difference being that 317s and 319s use a transformer to step down and convert from AC to DC where as the 455 (and I am no expert here) would be able to use the power direct from the 3rd rail with no requirement for a transformer. I guess could fit a transformer on 455 and put a Pantograph on it but I dont think it would be very viable.

 

[D365]

I guess could fit a transformer on 455 and put a Pantograph on it but I dont think it would be very viable.

You can say that again.

 

[Roast Veg]

What's stopping you from using a PTSO from another PEP/mk3 unit (other than total incompatibility in equipment)

 

[43096]

Can't they be converted if needs be? The 319's both have a 25kV AC and 750V DC power.

It would be phenomenally expensive to do. And with 319s available why would you bother?

It also seems likely the SWT 455s will be replaced in the new franchise, so they would be available anyway.

 

[D365]

What's stopping you from using a PTSO from another PEP/mk3 unit (other than total incompatibility in equipment)

think you've answered your own question there. And what would be the point with 100-odd 321s out on the market.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

think you've answered your own question there. And what would be the point with 100-odd 321s out on the market.

Not to mention the entire 379 fleet off Anglia ..

 

[F Great Eastern]

Not to mention the entire 379 fleet off Anglia ..

And 21 360s

 

[43096]

And 21 360s

The 5 HEx units are also available.

Talking of 455s, should the proposed conversion of a 319 with diesel engines be successful, that must open up the possibility of converting the 455s, which are likely to be ditched in the new SWT franchise. With AC motors and being PRM compliant, a 3-car DEMU conversion must have attractions for areas like Cardiff Valleys and the local routes in the East Midlands (Worksop, Matlock etc).

 

[Mordac]

The 5 HEx units are also available.

Talking of 455s, should the proposed conversion of a 319 with diesel engines be successful, that must open up the possibility of converting the 455s, which are likely to be ditched in the new SWT franchise. With AC motors and being PRM compliant, a 3-car DEMU conversion must have attractions for areas like Cardiff Valleys and the local routes in the East Midlands (Worksop, Matlock etc).

You'd need to add a panto as well, don't think that'd come in cheap.

 

[samuelmorris]

I think you can write that one off. There are still currently 40 or so 319s, 122 321/322s and 24 317/6s likely to be spare by 2021 which will be much simpler to convert. To my knowledge no 455s will be ready by that time even disregarding the considerable amount of extra work required. Even if somehow all that lot isn't enough, it'd probably still be cheaper to recondition 317/5s, /7s and /8s than try and convert a 455. Honestly I think the best thing to do with the 455s would be to retraction them and keep them DC in the areas they work now. The way current electrification is going, there's almost no concern about those regions going ahead while any pre-privatisation stock still exists on the network.

 

[physics34]

I think you can write that one off. There are still currently 40 or so 319s, 122 321/322s and 24 317/6s likely to be spare by 2021 which will be much simpler to convert. To my knowledge no 455s will be ready by that time even disregarding the considerable amount of extra work required. Even if somehow all that lot isn't enough, it'd probably still be cheaper to recondition 317/5s, /7s and /8s than try and convert a 455. Honestly I think the best thing to do with the 455s would be to retraction them and keep them DC in the areas they work now. The way current electrification is going, there's almost no concern about those regions going ahead while any pre-privatisation stock still exists on the network.

Probably puts the D Train project in jeopardy.

 

[43096]

You'd need to add a panto as well, don't think that'd come in cheap.

No, I'm proposing conversion to a straight diesel unit - hence why I wrote DEMU.

 

[jon0844]

You'd need to add a panto as well

Oh no you wouldn't!

 

[sc597]

My normal morning service has just gone 317 in the morning from 321s that have been used thus far, presumably with the rolling stock being shuffled round with the 377s being introduced. I've read this thread with various people speaking up for the 317s, and I don't know if it's a particular variation of this stock that is running out of Royston at 07:12, but I find them absolutely horrid - no luggage space anywhere - no overhead racks, no under seat storage - knee to knee seating, with the underneath and between seats boxed off. Are these particularly bad 317s?!

 

[D365]

Are these particularly bad 317s?!

Yep, the Great Northern Class 317/1s which, I believe, have not been refurbished since they were built in the early 80s. The only factor in their favour is (apparently) the 3+2 seating.

 

[notverydeep]

Yep, the Great Northern Class 317/1s which, I believe, have not been refurbished since they were built in the early 80s. The only factor in their favour is (apparently) the 3+2 seating.

The 12 GN Class 317s (317337 - 317348) all have the same configuration and all have quite substantial overhead luggage racks, except beneath the pantograph well. I would very much like to keep the 317s. The replacement 387s may well have a bit more space for heavy luggage, but this advantage is trivial by comparison to their huge disadvantage on these services: they have 138 fewer seats per 8 car train than the 317s.

A great many of the passengers on these services use these trains without heavy luggage circa 446 times per year (223 working days give or take) and with heavy luggage only very occasionally. When I do see people with heavy luggage on peak trains they can always find somewhere sensible to put cases.

317s aren't the most comfortable train ever, but having a seat for two 30 minute journeys per day is hugely better for the quality of life of a commuter than having to spend the same amount of time standing in crowded conditions.

 

[bramling]

My normal morning service has just gone 317 in the morning from 321s that have been used thus far, presumably with the rolling stock being shuffled round with the 377s being introduced. I've read this thread with various people speaking up for the 317s, and I don't know if it's a particular variation of this stock that is running out of Royston at 07:12, but I find them absolutely horrid - no luggage space anywhere - no overhead racks, no under seat storage - knee to knee seating, with the underneath and between seats boxed off. Are these particularly bad 317s?!

There are overhead racks, except at the extreme vehicle ends and in the section under the pantograph.

Yes the seating can be cramped when the trains are fully loaded, however the trade-off for this is that more people get to sit down. Another benefit is that a moderately loaded train (e.g. 50-70% loaded) will be rather more spacious than a 387 where every seat would be taken.

It doesn't help that you're on one of the busiest morning-peak services, so it's always going to be an unpleasant experience. Perhaps one advantage of the 387s is there's an increased likelihood the service could go to 12 cars with SDO used.

 

[sc597]

Interesting re: luggage, I will have a look along the train, perhaps it is just the section I generally use that does not have space.

I read the wikipedia page about the 317/1 introduction in the early 80s... "However, they did not enter service immediately due to an industrial dispute with the unions over Driver only operation". Plus ca change!

 

[absolutelymilk]

I presume these are still destined for the scrapheap when the 710s replace them?

 

[jopsuk]

The Class 710s will replace only the 8 317/7 and 6 317/8 at London Overground- it will be the un-numbered (as yet?) Aventras for Greater Anglia that will see off the rest of the fleet. And yes, the most likely destination is "metal reclamation"

 

[MatthewRead]

Anyone know what's happened to the demonstrator I mean is it still used on passenger services or is it now pretty much a dead duck?

 

[absolutelymilk]

The Class 710s will replace only the 8 317/7 and 6 317/8 at London Overground- it will be the un-numbered (as yet?) Aventras for Greater Anglia that will see off the rest of the fleet. And yes, the most likely destination is "metal reclamation"

Yes I meant just the LO ones, should have been clearer. The Aventras will be Class 720s.

 

[physics34]

I presume these are still destined for the scrapheap when the 710s replace them?

they are owned by Angel trains so unless they get sold to Porterbrook or Angel look at a similar FLEX programme, yeh they will be well and truly surplus.

 

[D365]

Angel Trains I don't think are as innovative or versatile with their rolling stock refurbishments as Porterbrook or Eversholt, but let's see how the Class 442 reintroduction pans out.

 

[CosherB]

they are owned by Angel trains so unless they get sold to Porterbrook or Angel look at a similar FLEX programme, yeh they will be well and truly surplus.

For the umpteenth time, 'Flex' is specific to 319s due to their build characteristics, and cannot be applied willy-nilly to all other classes of EMU. :roll:

 

[SPADTrap]

For the umpteenth time, 'Flex' is specific to 319s due to their build characteristics, and cannot be applied willy-nilly to all other classes of EMU. :roll:

Hence why he said 'similar' FLEX program?

 

[edwin_m]

For the umpteenth time, 'Flex' is specific to 319s due to their build characteristics, and cannot be applied willy-nilly to all other classes of EMU. :roll:

It would still be possible, though much more difficult than a 319 or indeed a 455. I suspect there are enough 319s and 455s around to fulfil all needs for DMUs of this type, so I agree it's unlikely to happen in practice.

 

[jopsuk]

86 class 319 should be more than enough to cover any and all demand for a mark 3 EMU with diesel engines. If anyone's after cast off mark 3 AC EMUs then 321s (especially Renatus) are likely to be more in demand, being newer (and if going to Northern, it's what they already have)

 

[physics34]

For the umpteenth time, 'Flex' is specific to 319s due to their build characteristics, and cannot be applied willy-nilly to all other classes of EMU. :roll:

Ooo calm down dear