GNERman
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What about 376's as they are high density but with corridors and possibly a tolilet?
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Toilets can't be used in the tunnels unfortunately, plus they are too long methinks and the LUL style seats would not be popular especially because most of the runs are outer suburban I.E. Chester-Liverpool-Chester services.
AFAIK services are pretty much back to normal, most services on the Chester-Liverpool-Chester, Ellesmere port-Liverpool-Ellesmere port and Hunts cross-Southport runs are now 6 car.
Though the Electrostars have tanks thus they dont release straight onto the track. Also, 378s do have gangway doors just to confirm that.
Though the Electrostars have tanks thus they dont release straight onto the track. Also, 378s do have gangway doors just to confirm that.
ah right thanks for that, I want sure whether they were equipped with tanks.
I think that maybe a variant of an electrostar is possible but it would "have" to conform to the restricted loading gauge because I don't think that Merseyrail would accept anything other considering the problems that they have had with the 7's & 8's.
oh and 378's don't have gangway doors on the outer ends of the DMS's which is one of the design "must haves" due to the single bore tunnels. having said that the front of a 378 is of standar electrostar design so could probably be "swapped" fpr one with a door.
Class 378s do have gangway doors though. Its the 376s that do not.
yeah sorry, i realised that I made a mistake and was looking at a picture of the wrong train lol! sorry.
[note to self]must look at the tops number first!
[/note to self]
yeah sorry, i realised that I made a mistake and was looking at a picture of the wrong train lol! sorry.
[note to self]must look at the tops number first!
I also made that mistake earlier in the thread ^^
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John_158
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I was reading in this Months Rail Magazine and cannot believe they are still looking at three carriages when they should be looking at six carriage vehicles as standard much like the new Thames Link Rolling Stock.
Just shows that Ned Serco and the Management at Mersey rail and Merseytravel the owner of the franchise have not got a clue about trains and never use them.
Three carriages is just not enough especially on the S-Port line at any time of the day the same with the other lines.
With the exception of the Ellesmere Port line for which I would scrap and make the services run as a extra Chester services to make it a 15min service to Chester and just have Northern run a Desil Shuttle Between Hooton-Ellesmere Port to Warrington Ban Quay with a 142 or 153.
Just shows that Ned Serco and the Management at Mersey rail and Merseytravel the owner of the franchise have not got a clue about trains and never use them.
Three carriages is just not enough especially on the S-Port line at any time of the day the same with the other lines.
With the exception of the Ellesmere Port line for which I would scrap and make the services run as a extra Chester services to make it a 15min service to Chester and just have Northern run a Desil Shuttle Between Hooton-Ellesmere Port to Warrington Ban Quay with a 142 or 153.
I'm sure they do - they run the most punctual TOC in the country, although the self-containedness of the network may help. Still, the refurb was a big plus, as are the constant service alterations to shift trains here there and everywhere to match demand. They can't do everything.
Three carriages is plentiful off-peak on the Southport line - I lived in Freshfields for just under a year, used the network a lot. It's hardly packed at midday.
If they had 6 car units, they would require more as they'd need more spare in case one 6 car unit goes wrong - instead of one 3 car unit, which can be covered by another one. It costs more everywhere.
John_158
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Three carriages is plentiful off-peak on the Southport line - I lived in Freshfields for just under a year, used the network a lot. It's hardly packed at midday.
Must just be when it gets closer to Liverpool that it gets packed out as allways near full some time full to standing when i get on the 11.57 from SFL
If they had 6 car units, they would require more as they'd need more spare in case one 6 car unit goes wrong - instead of one 3 car unit, which can be covered by another one. It costs more everywhere.[/QUOTE]
I think they would actually require about the same with only a few more to cover for the Bidston_Wrexham electrification.
But having six carriages would mean that they would suffer less failures as they would not need to be coupled up together all the time as most faults come from coupling and uncoupling constantly being bashed.
Must just be when it gets closer to Liverpool that it gets packed out as allways near full some time full to standing when i get on the 11.57 from SFL
If they had 6 car units, they would require more as they'd need more spare in case one 6 car unit goes wrong - instead of one 3 car unit, which can be covered by another one. It costs more everywhere.[/QUOTE]
I think they would actually require about the same with only a few more to cover for the Bidston_Wrexham electrification.
But having six carriages would mean that they would suffer less failures as they would not need to be coupled up together all the time as most faults come from coupling and uncoupling constantly being bashed.
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As may have been mentioned before- expect different types of unit for different lines.
Ultimately, I feel that Merseyside is unlikely to receive anything new- ever.
What would happen is 377s would be cascaded and Southern get new stock! Okay- no ounce of evidence supports that particular statement, but it's not unlikely our 'new' units will actually be 'new'.
Southport-Hunts Cross - probably would be best to run these all as 6-car. Lots of stabling at Southport. Is possible that frequency is increased by running 'short journeys' Liv Central-Formby etc...
LVC-Ormskirk - until about 1000 M-F and 1600-1900 in both directions, 6-car needed. Saturdays, 6-cars needed around 12pm-3pm.
LVC-Kirkby - as above. Maybe a few less 6-car during the peak. Currently all run as 3, with overcrowding around 8am M-F.
Chester-Chester via LVC - 6-car workings at all times, all week.
Ellesmere Port-Ellesmere Port via LVC - some strengthened peak services up until 0900. Otherwise 3-car fine.
West Kirby/New Brighton - again peak services strengthened. any spare 6-car units would be helpful of a weekend.
Ultimately, I feel that Merseyside is unlikely to receive anything new- ever.
What would happen is 377s would be cascaded and Southern get new stock! Okay- no ounce of evidence supports that particular statement, but it's not unlikely our 'new' units will actually be 'new'.
Southport-Hunts Cross - probably would be best to run these all as 6-car. Lots of stabling at Southport. Is possible that frequency is increased by running 'short journeys' Liv Central-Formby etc...
LVC-Ormskirk - until about 1000 M-F and 1600-1900 in both directions, 6-car needed. Saturdays, 6-cars needed around 12pm-3pm.
LVC-Kirkby - as above. Maybe a few less 6-car during the peak. Currently all run as 3, with overcrowding around 8am M-F.
Chester-Chester via LVC - 6-car workings at all times, all week.
Ellesmere Port-Ellesmere Port via LVC - some strengthened peak services up until 0900. Otherwise 3-car fine.
West Kirby/New Brighton - again peak services strengthened. any spare 6-car units would be helpful of a weekend.
The thing is, Merseyrail are going to need new, specially designed stock if they are going to avoid some of the maintainance headaches they've had with the 507/508s. When one of them derailed in the loop tunnel in 2005 the raib report stated that the units cannot effectively traverse the tight curves in the loop, causing large amounts of wheel/rail wear.
NEVER bring back arriva trains merseyside. They were nearly as bad as MTL!
I don't see the point in moaning about merseyrail management, they've given people like you who use the network regularly so much since they took over the franchise.
NEVER bring back arriva trains merseyside. They were nearly as bad as MTL!
I don't see the point in moaning about merseyrail management, they've given people like you who use the network regularly so much since they took over the franchise.
ok, so if the depots are full now, with 59 3 car sets, where do you expect 60 odd 6 car sets to go? remember, your efectively doubling the amount of units, even after the increase in units.
It really wouldnt work.
The southport line actually has almost preferential treatment, for example, if you look at the stats, you will find that it has the most amount of 6 car trains on the whole network, its made easier by the fact that it has its own stock allocation at southport. It is rotated frequently though.
Are you actually mad? why would you want to scrap the ellesmere port line? it has as many passengers as the chester services, plus its the only decent service to ellesmere port nowadays.
It really wouldnt work.
The southport line actually has almost preferential treatment, for example, if you look at the stats, you will find that it has the most amount of 6 car trains on the whole network, its made easier by the fact that it has its own stock allocation at southport. It is rotated frequently though.
Are you actually mad? why would you want to scrap the ellesmere port line? it has as many passengers as the chester services, plus its the only decent service to ellesmere port nowadays.
highly unlikely, electrostars will not fit the restricted loading gauge, as has been mentioned already in this thread.
First class
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If you have read the RUS for Merseyside, you will be aware that there is over 10 spaces available for additional 6-car stabling at Southport. Needs improved security, but space is there.
The Ellesmere Port line is the most underused line on the network, and certainly does not have the same number of passengers as Chester, hence those services running as 6-cars during the peak. You may be saying the line is busy Liverpool-Hooton, but I assure you, from Hooton-Ellesmere Port, you're looking at about 20-30 people max, against a full train Hooton-Chester. I also believe a shuttle running to Helsby would benefit the Ellesmere Port-Helsby line, (Ince & Elton, Stanlow & Thornton), which currently sees a handful of trains a day. If you ran 4tph to Chester, with 2tph Hooton-Helsby, effectively the frequency remains the same, with better Chester links, and better Ellesmere Port/Helsby links. You could probably run a few peak trains to Ellesmere Port, and the rest of the day have a diesel service to Helsby.
Also, toilets are now permitted seeing as though they are all now retentive. Toilets that empty straight on to track were banned for obvious reasons.
Seeing as though the MPV, 20s, 66s, 67s and 73s have been in the loop, I don't think clearance is as much as a problem as you think, particularly as NWR also suggest a mass-project to increase the gauge by re-doing the tunnels.
Finally, you assume that all services will run into the loop in the future. Actually unlikely. In about 10 years or so, a new station will be built as LVC is dangerously overcrowded. This will be above ground- mainly so the fire regulations, (staffing), are relaxed, as well as cost. This is likely to begin once the development behind Central station starts, (Central Village), and the site of a new station is more likely to be around a remodelled Bold Street. Again all in the FINAL RUS.
Finally, the reason Southport has some additional 6-car workings is because Merseytravel, the PTE, finance us at Merseyrail to run them as so. They are known as 'incentivised services'. Nothing to do with stock allocation, as a lot of these units are stored at Kirkdale TMD.
I think your comment about Ellesmere Port having the same amount of passengers is wildly out of touch with reality. EP trains only start getting busy at Hooton, incidentally where the Chester trains also run...
The Ellesmere Port line is the most underused line on the network, and certainly does not have the same number of passengers as Chester, hence those services running as 6-cars during the peak. You may be saying the line is busy Liverpool-Hooton, but I assure you, from Hooton-Ellesmere Port, you're looking at about 20-30 people max, against a full train Hooton-Chester. I also believe a shuttle running to Helsby would benefit the Ellesmere Port-Helsby line, (Ince & Elton, Stanlow & Thornton), which currently sees a handful of trains a day. If you ran 4tph to Chester, with 2tph Hooton-Helsby, effectively the frequency remains the same, with better Chester links, and better Ellesmere Port/Helsby links. You could probably run a few peak trains to Ellesmere Port, and the rest of the day have a diesel service to Helsby.
Also, toilets are now permitted seeing as though they are all now retentive. Toilets that empty straight on to track were banned for obvious reasons.
Seeing as though the MPV, 20s, 66s, 67s and 73s have been in the loop, I don't think clearance is as much as a problem as you think, particularly as NWR also suggest a mass-project to increase the gauge by re-doing the tunnels.
Finally, you assume that all services will run into the loop in the future. Actually unlikely. In about 10 years or so, a new station will be built as LVC is dangerously overcrowded. This will be above ground- mainly so the fire regulations, (staffing), are relaxed, as well as cost. This is likely to begin once the development behind Central station starts, (Central Village), and the site of a new station is more likely to be around a remodelled Bold Street. Again all in the FINAL RUS.
Finally, the reason Southport has some additional 6-car workings is because Merseytravel, the PTE, finance us at Merseyrail to run them as so. They are known as 'incentivised services'. Nothing to do with stock allocation, as a lot of these units are stored at Kirkdale TMD.
I think your comment about Ellesmere Port having the same amount of passengers is wildly out of touch with reality. EP trains only start getting busy at Hooton, incidentally where the Chester trains also run...
It is true that there is alot of siding space available at Southport, but they're still sidings, not a depot. If the network is going to get 59 6 car trains then Kirkdale will need to be expanded. For the wirral Birkenhead Central depot may well be reopened to increase capacity.
I think that "de-electrifying" the Ellesmere Port line would be an extremely unpopular move, and you can't really say you're improving the service along this branch if you're reducing the train from a 3 car EMU to a 2 car DMU, along with forcing the passengers who use the line to change at Hooton and get on an already busy train from Chester.
Personally I think that toilets onboard the trains are wholly unnecessary on Merseyrail, given that the majority of passengers are not travelling the full length of the line.
Really? 66s in the loop tunnels? I had no idea they could do that. Also, the loop line is signalled to allow (theoretically) 24tph around it. Its currently something like 12-15(?) at peak time so there is still room for more.
4tph on the Chester services is already running at peak time, and merseyrail obviously want to run this frequency all day. However, because theres only one platform at Chester thats electrified there is very little turnaround time, so services never make up time when there are delays, so they get cancelled.
I think that "de-electrifying" the Ellesmere Port line would be an extremely unpopular move, and you can't really say you're improving the service along this branch if you're reducing the train from a 3 car EMU to a 2 car DMU, along with forcing the passengers who use the line to change at Hooton and get on an already busy train from Chester.
Personally I think that toilets onboard the trains are wholly unnecessary on Merseyrail, given that the majority of passengers are not travelling the full length of the line.
Really? 66s in the loop tunnels? I had no idea they could do that. Also, the loop line is signalled to allow (theoretically) 24tph around it. Its currently something like 12-15(?) at peak time so there is still room for more.
4tph on the Chester services is already running at peak time, and merseyrail obviously want to run this frequency all day. However, because theres only one platform at Chester thats electrified there is very little turnaround time, so services never make up time when there are delays, so they get cancelled.
yes, 10 spaces, wow. even that and the space in Kirkdale/Birkenhead north would not be enough for 60 odd 6 car trains, which if you had read the previous posts properly is what you would have known we were talking about.
maybe, but they dont go through several times a day, every day, which is the problem. I also find the thought of a 66 in the loop completely ridiculous to be honest.
now how is that going to be possible? I know it used to happen in the hunts cross direction with the old central, but how do you do it in the other direction, I.E. towards kirkby/ormskirk/southport? without having to knock down half of Liverpool?
i wasnt saying that stock allocation is the main factor, i was saying it was a contributing factor. and yes the units are assigned to Kirkdale/Birkenhead, but they are stabled at Southport.
I am going on personal experience, not official statistics, because usually I get the Ellesmere port train to hooton and then catch a chester train from hooton (its warmer in the waiting shelter at hooton than it is in Liverpool Lime street underground
) and the hooton train is generally, not always, relatively busy, not packed, but a comfortable amount of passengers.An expansion at Kirkdale would be difficult without moving the existing Ormskirk/Kirby lines across onto the old trackbed (as the only availbe space currently is either on the other side of the existing railway or in the cuttings east of the station), rebuilding a bridge and platform and probably re-aligning a lot of track.
Re-opening Hall Road is probably the cheapest option, but that would likely cause an imabalance in the storage for the network, with far too much of it on the Liverpool side (there would be a lot of ECS moves needed daily to shift units around). Expanding/Re-opening depots on both sides would probably be the best option, with the ability then to stop stabling units in places where security is lax and trains invariably get 'painted' by youth 'artists'.
Toilets really arent needed, and I dont know anyone who uses the network regularly who would actually want them. Not just because they arent needed on such a short distance, but because of the obvious drawbacks of having toilets on a network unfortunately prone to vandalism and fare dodging. Better to install toilets at stations where people are likely to need them, such as stations with a larger percentage of travellers going unusually long distances than most.
Re-opening Hall Road is probably the cheapest option, but that would likely cause an imabalance in the storage for the network, with far too much of it on the Liverpool side (there would be a lot of ECS moves needed daily to shift units around). Expanding/Re-opening depots on both sides would probably be the best option, with the ability then to stop stabling units in places where security is lax and trains invariably get 'painted' by youth 'artists'.
Toilets really arent needed, and I dont know anyone who uses the network regularly who would actually want them. Not just because they arent needed on such a short distance, but because of the obvious drawbacks of having toilets on a network unfortunately prone to vandalism and fare dodging. Better to install toilets at stations where people are likely to need them, such as stations with a larger percentage of travellers going unusually long distances than most.
Hall Road depot was demolished a few months ago, so I think it's highly unlikely that it will be rebuilt. Birkenhead Central depot however is still standing and could probably be brought back into use without too much money being spent.
emoaconr
Member
I don't really see why Merseyrail are still in the refurbishment scheme if their 507/8s are due to expire. Surely its a waste of money?
I think the refurbishment scheme has had a nice finish inside the trains, but perhaps its been done a bit on the cheap and seems to be failing in places.
Just to ask, under Arriva Trains Merseyside, were a) liveries ever changed to Arriva corporate, and b) how well did ATM portray its identity with Merseyside PTE breathing down its neck with the Merseytravel brand?
I think the refurbishment scheme has had a nice finish inside the trains, but perhaps its been done a bit on the cheap and seems to be failing in places.
Just to ask, under Arriva Trains Merseyside, were a) liveries ever changed to Arriva corporate, and b) how well did ATM portray its identity with Merseyside PTE breathing down its neck with the Merseytravel brand?
What do you mean by the bit in bold? The refurbs finished years ago.
emoaconr
Member
That was written at some graveyard shift hour last night :P
What I meant was, back in 02-04, they knew the limited lifespan remaining on the units; the refurbishments were very thorough. Though I guess serving the extremely busy Merseyrail service in a metropolitan area, I suppose 8-10 years of wear and tear will definately take its toll.
a) The livery was never changed drastically, however there was some variation between the units. Some of them retained their original livery throughout, some had the black stripe removed, leaving only the grey stripe above it. Many of the units had new doors installed and they were also painted white (for the visually impaired?, was this after Arriva times perhaps?). No units were ever painted in Arriva's corporate colours.
b) Very badly. The stations had M branding all over them. The trains were still in yellow, albeit with one black arriva logo at each end on each side (see Brian Battersby's photo here). The trains also had MerseyTravel logos on to recognise the PTE. The average traveller would think that the trains were operated by MerseyTravel, rather than Arriva.
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