Merseyrail new rolling stock

[First class]

The 507s and 508s in Merseyside are due to life expire fairly soon. With the restrictions on the type of rolling stock that can be used underground, what options do Merseyrail have?

319s and 455s are the only units that are permitted, yet these haven't got much longer in them either.

Any suggestions on what might be in the pipeline?

 

[laseandre]

They're refurbishing the 507/508s as a temporary measure, and then going for replacement about 5/6 years down the line.

 

[rail-britain]

What are the specific restrictions?
Why would they be restricted to yet more second hand rolling stock?
It would make more sense to order along with another operator and I am quite sure there are arrangements already in place for that

 

[First class]

Yeah, they've already refurbed the 507s and 508s, (ages ago actually) but they seem to be getting quite grubby already. The ride quality is awful - it really is time for new rolling stock. The restictions are gangway doors, the height of the train, and things like good emergency lighting etc...

The local PTE is obviously uniquely in charge of Merseyrail franchise, and they are saying the units need replacing by 2011. I agree it makes more sense to order with another operator, but only London Overground run a similar collection of EMUs, and their fleet is getting renewed very soon anyway.

Do you think Merseyside would ever get 444/450s?

 

[rail-britain]

Given that the units are from the same family as the Class 313 and 314 there will be plenty of spares shortly!
Given that emergency end-door gangways are a requirement then it would make sense to order new units along with TS which is replacing the FSR Class 314 units
However with the other restrictions on height and emergency lighting, then the only option may be to order TOC specific units and that's going to push the cost up, so the units will probably be operated right up until their life expiry

 

[me123]

Given that emergency end-door gangways are a requirement then it would make sense to order new units along with TS which is replacing the FSR Class 314 units
However with the other restrictions on height and emergency lighting, then the only option may be to order TOC specific units and that's going to push the cost up, so the units will probably be operated right up until their life expiry

Aren't FSR getting their new 380s, causing a cascade which eventually allows the 320s to take over Cathcart services? I wouldn't imagine that 380s would be able to use the tight Merseyside tunnels.:?

I would agree that TOC specific units are the way to go. Let's face it, 313s are coming to the end of their life as well, and the cost of converting 314s to DC operation can't really be worthwhile, considering their lifespan. And 314s are desperately needing refurbished, so you'd have to add that cost into the equation.

 

[First class]

It sounds like they would be better starting a new fleet from scratch- I can't see anyone spending more money to refurbish old trains, that will need replacing fairly soon anyway. Merseytravel have a lot of plans to extend the network over non-electrified routes, so some sort of hybrid train is going to be needed, are there actually any passenger 3rd Rail / Diesel units at present??

 

[rail-britain]

I remember reading about the Merseyrail extension and included was a section that the route would be upgraded with electrification

I'm not sure what specification the new Class 380 units are, but if they are to C1 or C1 restricted loading gauge then they should fit within the Merseyrail routes

 

[class 313]

The 507s and 508s in Merseyside are due to life expire fairly soon. With the restrictions on the type of rolling stock that can be used underground, what options do Merseyrail have?

319s and 455s are the only units that are permitted, yet these haven't got much longer in them either.

Any suggestions on what might be in the pipeline?

Apart from the fact there will be no 319s spare until at least 2011.

They have been rurbished with passenger screens and high backed seats. Why do they need replacing?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Merseytravel have a lot of plans to extend the network over non-electrified routes, so some sort of hybrid train is going to be needed, are there actually any passenger 3rd Rail / Diesel units at present??

No there isn't any units like that at the momentt. Only class 73 locomotives.

Chances are they will get a type DMU for the non electrified lines.

 

[First class]

Managing Director has said himself he does not know how they are managing to keep the 507s/508s running... additionally, the refurb meant capacity was lost, meaning that even during quiet periods, standing room only... there is also a rolling stock shortage within Merseyrail, and as Merseytravel want a uniform fleet, cannot start bringing in other classes of EMU alongside existing.

The ride quality is extremely uncomfortable, and the line speed for Hooton - Chester is supposed to be increased, to improve journey times. There is also meant to be a 4tph service in Dec 2008, instead of 2, meaning more rolling stock is required - soon.

 

[rail-britain]

The Class 314 units have reasonably good ride quality
One of the vehicles from this Class was converted from a Class 507/508, so it should be quite straight forward to refurbish and convert Class 314 vehicles for Merseyrail
Not long to wait either, so that may indeed be the plan!

 

[alex57601]

The lease on the current Merseyrail fleet expires in 2015, but it is clear that they will require new stock sooner rather than later, with capacity being one reason.

They're refurbishing the 507/508s as a temporary measure, and then going for replacement about 5/6 years down the line.

The refurb project was completed in 2005, and I want to know where you've been hiding for the last few years!

Chances are they will get a type DMU for the non electrified lines.

No they won't. The 'City Line' services are currently operated by Northern Rail and this arrangement will continue for a long time yet.

The Class 314 units have reasonably good ride quality
One of the vehicles from this Class was converted from a Class 507/508, so it should be quite straight forward to refurbish and convert Class 314 vehicles for Merseyrail

That came about when two 507s collided at Kirkdale depot in the early 1990s, meaning that one good unit was made out of the undamaged cars, leaving a few spare vehicles. When 314203 had a collision with a 303 in 1994 (?) one of the spare vehicles from the Kirkdale incident was repaired and converted into a 314 vehicle. The damaged 314 vehicle, along with the remaining damaged 507 vehicles were scrapped.

I can't see the point in converting 314s for 750v DC operation when there are several spare 508s in the south already, along with dual-voltage 313s soon to be available on the market. Plus the 314s will need OTMR as they are currently on a TNC of some sort pending their imminent withdrawal.

Until Merseyrail acquires all-new rolling stock I think any interim capacity expansion will come in the form of 508s and/or 313s...and in fact I've heard rumours that about six units from one of these two classes will soon be heading north.

 

[rail-britain]

Theres your answer then, Class 313 units will be used to supplement the fleet
With the lease expiring in 2015 that gives Merseyrail until about 2013 to decide what rolling stock specification is required
They will need to make a decision no later than the end of 2013, but if another TOC makes an order for similar units around the same time then they may enter into an agreement to order additional units
Given that Thameslink may order new rolling stock, as part of their next franchise, that may also release Class 319 units just in time

 

[class 313]

Thameslink may order new rolling stock, as part of their next franchise, that may also release Class 319 units just in time

As said above, Thameslink will be getting new stock from 2011/2015... The company's to build the stock have been short-listed and now awaiting for one to be picked.

 

[rail-britain]

That looks like the most obvious cascade then, unless Merseyrail would prefer to lease new rolling stock
However, given the finances at Merseyrail it's more than likely the cascade option will be preferred and that will take Class 319 units into their fleet for about ten years

Would the stations be able to cope with four and eight car units?
Do many services currently operate with six cars?

 

[thelem]

Of course if they are considering new stock around 2015 timeframe, then the new thameslink wonder-trains will be in production, so they could consider a variant of those.

 

[First class]

Yes, trains run frequently as 6 car these days, particularly Hunts Cross - Southport, but especially during peak hours, it simply isn't enough capacity.

The 6 cars occupy the entire platforms, and it would be difficult to extend to 8-car, especially at the underground stations.

Anyone got any links relating to the Thameslink new trains? Wouldn't mind a little look...

I was actually wondering whether Merseyrail might consider London Underground stock in the future- potentially new build?

 

[alex57601]

Would the stations be able to cope with four and eight car units?
Do many services currently operate with six cars?

Many peak-time services run as 6-car trains, and especially if there are special events going on, such as the Southport Flower Show and the Grand National, whereby extra capacity is laid on to lines serving the venues of such events.

To run 8-car trains on Merseyrail the main issue will be platform lengths as some stations can only take up to 6-car trains. Also any new trains can't be of C3 loading gauge as I believe that it is banned from the underground tunnels, although I need clarification on that one.

 

[Edvid]

319s and 455s are the only [other?] units that are permitted, yet these haven't got much longer in them either.
Anyone got any links relating to the Thameslink new trains? Wouldn't mind a little look...

The Thameslink Rolling Stock Project microsite is your best bet for information on the Thameslink NGEMUs. By the way, the 319s may actually be out-of-gauge for the Merseyrail network according to those on uk.railway, so PEP-style units are their best bet - incidentally there is talk of 508s not being booked for Southeastern services (from December 2008 ) on the UKmodernEMU Yahoo Group. In that case 319s may still play a part in increasing capacity on the Merseyrail network, insofar as (in March 2009) they will displace Networkers from Blackfriars diagrams, which will be used to strengthen other SER metro services and perhaps even (in?)directly displace the 508s...

 

[First class]

Many peak-time services run as 6-car trains, and especially if there are special events going on, such as the Southport Flower Show and the Grand National, whereby extra capacity is laid on to lines serving the venues of such events.

To run 8-car trains on Merseyrail the main issue will be platform lengths as some stations can only take up to 6-car trains. Also any new trains can't be of C3 loading gauge as I believe that it is banned from the underground tunnels, although I need clarification on that one.

Yeah, don't think can be C3. Merseyrail are probably going to end up with custom-built stock, unlike Thameslink, infrastructure enhancements are unlikely, meaning that platform lengths are probably going to be a problem.

They need high-capacity trains like LU, so I suspect similar styled EMUs will head to Merseyside. There is a lot of talk of extending the network, so hybrid trains are probably going to be on the agenda...

Short-term, Merseyrail need more 508s, especially for their increased service to Chester, (4tph from Dec 2008). That's going to mean less 6-car units, as they're already short because of various collisions.

I wonder if Northern's replacement EMU stock from China may influence the trains Merseyrail have, after all they both are formed from SedNerco Railways... The thing that intrigues me is that the DfT don't deal with Merseyrail, the PTE Merseytravel do, and they are adamant they are short of cash, I have no idea how they are plan to replace an entire fleet of 507s + 508s in 2/3 years time, when they are spending over £35million on extensions, i.e. Halton Curve, Olive Mount Chord, Ellesmere Port - Helsby, Bootle Branch up to 2015. A new, increased fleet must be in excess of £30m??? They simply do not have £65 million available to them between now and 2011-2013.

Are they really that likely to spend more money on refurbishing cascaded units? Merseytravel have quite a strict DDA policy for Merseyrail.

A reply from Merseyrail informed me they were still trying to 'identifying the future Merseyrail network before securing replacement rolling stock'. Quite simply, I think they're being too slow, and are running out of time.

If it came to it, any ideas wha the very, very, very latest year is before the EMUs become unworkable?

 

[class 313]

I can hardly see any kind of Hybrid train being built.

 

[alex57601]

A reply from Merseyrail informed me they were still trying to 'identifying the future Merseyrail network before securing replacement rolling stock'. Quite simply, I think they're being too slow, and are running out of time.

If it came to it, any ideas wha the very, very, very latest year is before the EMUs become unworkable?

With the first point, I think they are trying to establish whether or not long-mooted extensions to the Merseyrail network like electrification to Wrexham, Wigan and Burscough ever comes to fruition during the lifetime of the replacement fleet. Wigan, and even more so Wrexham, are fair distances away from Liverpool by rail and if a new fleet was based on a similar specification to the current fleet it would be uncomfortable to travel end-to-end. The same applies if the third rail ever extends to Preston.

One example is that the current fleet have no toilets which can be frustrating if you are travelling from Liverpool to Southport or Chester or Ellesmere Port which are the current longest journeys Merseyrail can do.

The best term to describe the 507/508s is that they are metro-style stock whereby they are built to run on short, consistent stop-start, journeys. And at the moment they are used on a mix of these journeys (i.e. Kirkby and New Brighton) and journeys that can be described as outer-suburban or inter-urban (Southport, Chester, Ellesmere Port).

This map shows how Merseytravel eventually envisage the local rail network to look like, some of which is not too dissimilar to a similar proposal from the 1970s when the tunnels were being built and electrification schemes to Wigan and Halewood were being talked about...

http://stethomson.com/Documents/N SUN MerseytravelVisionMap.pdf

 

[laseandre]

The refurb project was completed in 2005, and I want to know where you've been hiding for the last few years!

I'm just going by what I read in RAIL.

 

[466.networkers]

Well, the Thameslink Project will free up at least 10 Class 465s, so they might be made to use on the Suburban lines (Sheerness Line, Medway Valley etc) in place of 466/508s. So the 6 remaining 508s that SET have recently refurbished will likely go back to Merseyside, not sure about the 6 in warm store at Chart Leacon, saying that 508212 is in a severe state of disrepair due to it being a ready source of spare parts to keep the others in service.

That's not certain yet, but it's a possibility. No doubt I'll be wrong!

 

[First class]

With the first point, I think they are trying to establish whether or not long-mooted extensions to the Merseyrail network like electrification to Wrexham, Wigan and Burscough ever comes to fruition during the lifetime of the replacement fleet. Wigan, and even more so Wrexham, are fair distances away from Liverpool by rail and if a new fleet was based on a similar specification to the current fleet it would be uncomfortable to travel end-to-end. The same applies if the third rail ever extends to Preston.

One example is that the current fleet have no toilets which can be frustrating if you are travelling from Liverpool to Southport or Chester or Ellesmere Port which are the current longest journeys Merseyrail can do.

The best term to describe the 507/508s is that they are metro-style stock whereby they are built to run on short, consistent stop-start, journeys. And at the moment they are used on a mix of these journeys (i.e. Kirkby and New Brighton) and journeys that can be described as outer-suburban or inter-urban (Southport, Chester, Ellesmere Port).

This map shows how Merseytravel eventually envisage the local rail network to look like, some of which is not too dissimilar to a similar proposal from the 1970s when the tunnels were being built and electrification schemes to Wigan and Halewood were being talked about...

http://stethomson.com/Documents/N SUN MerseytravelVisionMap.pdf

Nice to see my website used as a source If you go to www.mcrc.co.nr you can read more about my rail user group, but back to Merseyrail...

I don't see why all their trains have to run to Liverpool Central. There are spare Platforms at Birkenhead North, Birkenhead Central, Rock Ferry & Hooton. It would remove a lot of restrictions on type of rolling stock.

As for toilets, vandalism and fare evasion spring to mind, as well as increased running costs. I don't recall Merseyrail ever having these facilities, and can't ever really see it happening - probably as much chance as a buffet :neutral:

I'm beginning to wonder if they could improve the service by reducing 4tph to 3tph, but using 6-cars instead of 3?? I also think more use should be made of the Northern-Wirral line link by James Street, currently only used for ECS movements... Ormskirk/Kirkby/Hunts X to Wirral...

I've also noticed Hunts X actually has two platforms that are electrified, so could be extended out towards Warrington, but I think OHE would be much more suited.

If the 3rd rail ever goes up to Preston, thats using the WCML, **I think** the speed limit is 75-100mph, and with a lot of movements, even in slow lines, they really do need stock capable of performing. They need stock that will be "future proof" because they certainly won't get anymore until it life-expires.

 

[alex57601]

If the 3rd rail ever goes up to Preston, thats using the WCML, **I think** the speed limit is 75-100mph, and with a lot of movements, even in slow lines, they really do need stock capable of performing. They need stock that will be "future proof" because they certainly won't get anymore until it life-expires.

When the third rail reaches Farington Jct they can always lay it onto the slow lines, and perhaps on the relief lines that go over the girder bridge if needs be, and Merseyrail could run out of Platforms 1 or 2 or even reactivate the RES platform if they can get a footbridge over there.

They should have no problems with 75mph trains on the WCML slow lines as long as they can move quickly off the mark as per the current fleet.

And LaSeandre, don't trust everything that is printed in LIAR.

 

[will1337]

If the 3rd rail ever goes up to Preston, thats using the WCML, **I think** the speed limit is 75-100mph, and with a lot of movements, even in slow lines, they really do need stock capable of performing. They need stock that will be "future proof" because they certainly won't get anymore until it life-expires.

Well not going via Ormskirk but as it's single track beyond there some major work would have to be done to keep up any sort of decent frequency. Merseyrail seems quite an oddity to me as it's pretty self contained and the track just ends in the middle of Ellesmere Port and Ormskirk stations, becoming non electrified afterwards and having a massively poorer service.

 

[alex57601]

Well not going via Ormskirk but as it's single track beyond there some major work would have to be done to keep up any sort of decent frequency. Merseyrail seems quite an oddity to me as it's pretty self contained and the track just ends in the middle of Ellesmere Port and Ormskirk stations, becoming non electrified afterwards and having a massively poorer service.

The only major work would be to replace a recently-installed single track bridge at Croston with a double-track bridge, lay a second running line from Farington Jct to Ormskirk, resignal the route, rebuild/reopen the second platforms at Ormskirk, Burscough Junction and Croston, decide what line to electrify as third rail between Farington Jct and Preston and what platform(s) to electrify.

Oh, and of course, lay the third rail.

 

[will1337]

Not terribly much work then..

 

[Phoenix]

are there actually any passenger 3rd Rail / Diesel units at present??

I don't think there has been any at all or any plans to in the future I guess it's one of those combinations which isn't really needed.
Remeber that 73's were only given diesel engines so that yards and depots didn't have to have 3rd rail.