Strike ballot coming for Arriva Northern.

[wingsoveryorks]

RMT, and probably ASLEF as well, will be balloting for industrial action over pay in the coming weeks. Arriva thinks their offer is a good one that values it's workers.

Well, If you play silly games, you win silly prizes.

 

[Polarbear]

Are any details of the offer being made by Arriva to Northern staff available in the public domain?

 

[alastair]

RMT, and probably ASLEF as well, will be balloting for industrial action over pay in the coming weeks. Arriva thinks their offer is a good one that values it's workers.

Well, If you play silly games, you win silly prizes.

What "silly games"?

 

[WatcherZero]

Inflation is around 0.9/1% so anything above that would be an above inflation offer.

They've just come off a two year 2.5% or inflation which ever is higher agreement (during which inflation was virtually zero) which included rest day working till Dec 2017.

Drivers have a 32 hour (4.2 day east 4 day west) working week and haven't worked in excess of 35 hours since 2000.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102692/northern_rail/

 

[PR1Berske]

Inflation is around 0.9/1% so anything above that would be an above inflation offer.

They've just come off a two year 2.5% or inflation which ever is higher agreement (during which inflation was virtually zero) which included rest day working till Dec 2017.

Drivers have a 32 hour (4.2 day east 4 day west) working week and haven't worked in excess of 35 hours since 2000.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102692/northern_rail/

So from one perspective you could argue that they've had it quite good thus far ....

 

[Bookd]

Following the Brexit vote and the fall in the value of the pound inflation is likely to rise, but recently it has been close to zero; any pay rise would be an increase in real terms.

 

[northwichcat]

Inflation is around 0.9/1% so anything above that would be an above inflation offer.

If you play silly games, you win silly prizes.

So if the unions are demanding >1% it might be a silly game and result in the silly prize of a new contract with an above inflation pay rise that includes DCO terms. You don't demand above inflation pay rises when your employer is looking in to restructuring unless you care more about money than your role!

 

[cactustwirly]

This is stupid, drivers are well paid.....

Seriously the current offer is very good, most people in the private sector haven't really had a pay rise for the past 4 years.

 

[WCMLaddict]

35 hour week. Not 32.
I would like to ask Northern staff not to disclose the offer details.

 

[furnessvale]

35 hour week. Not 32.
I would like to ask Northern staff not to disclose the offer details.

??????

As long as no one comes on here looking for sympathy.

 

[northwichcat]

I would like to ask Northern staff not to disclose the offer details.

If the RMT issue a strike ballot you can be sure that Mick Cash will disclose at least parts of the deal to the media and Northern will then disclose the bits Mick Cash doesn't want to mention.

 

[WCMLaddict]

And the staff can let the union and the company do what they feel is necessary. No need to disclose the offers here as it will as always focus on % and completely miss the real points of why the staff feel the offer is not acceptable.
That's all from me.

 

[HLE]

So from one perspective you could argue that they've had it quite good thus far ....

And therefore why would you accept anything worse than what you currently have?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Following the Brexit vote and the fall in the value of the pound inflation is likely to rise, but recently it has been close to zero; any pay rise would be an increase in real terms.

What stance did the RMT adopt in the recent referendum that was held?

 

[Carlisle]

What stance did the RMT adopt in the recent referendum that was held?

Was RMT by supporting Brexit thinking that in the longer term less migration will drive up their membership, wages and conditions amongst the home grown workforce

 

[scrapy]

Aslef have also rejected the pay deal so expect a ballot from them too.

I think the mood among staff is that Serco Abellio used the excuse that they were limited by the DFT on the final years of the franchise. The franchise was then extended and same excuse used again. During this time Northern fell further behind other TOCs and were one of the lowest paid in the industry anyway. If the new offer is looked at purely on its own it is probably not the worst pay offer for rail staff in the country but the gap between highest paid and lowest is getting wider and Northern staff with their multiple stops probably work harder than longer distance TOCS who also benefit from better working conditions on newer stock.

 

[Robertj21a]

And the staff can let the union and the company do what they feel is necessary. No need to disclose the offers here as it will as always focus on % and completely miss the real points of why the staff feel the offer is not acceptable.
That's all from me.

It may well be all from you but I daresay others may wonder why a seemingly good deal is not acceptable if, as you say, it's not about the %. Is it hours (seems unlikely !), working conditions, management.....?

 

[driver_m]

If you worked for one branch of a company and got paid x amount of money and then found out that another branch of the company and found out its staff who did exactly the same job got paid x+++ amount of money, you would naturally ask 1) why? and 2) pay us the same.
Always the same on here, drivers should be grateful, i can't have a pay rise so no one else should. (and to be fair, we'll be saying people wanting a race to the bottom, jealousy, etc) I'll give it a day before someone plays the nurse pay card.

 

[387star]

Noone in the southeast can ever earn enough given the absurd house prices especially around London

Not sure to what extent london and the south east weighting comes into train drivers salaries? Surely southeast drivers will always earn more as in real terms it is likely no increase

 

[Paceman]

Inflation is around 0.9/1% so anything above that would be an above inflation offer.

They've just come off a two year 2.5% or inflation which ever is higher agreement (during which inflation was virtually zero) which included rest day working till Dec 2017.

Drivers have a 32 hour (4.2 day east 4 day west) working week and haven't worked in excess of 35 hours since 2000.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102692/northern_rail/

Quite a few inaccuracies in your post, firstly about drivers terms, and secondly about the rate of inflation.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking at recent RMT involvement in a number of existing and proposed debates, I am sure that the conspiracy theorists will have a field day of fertile imagination in seeing the RMT as the "shock troops" of the "Momentum" Socialist Alliance in attempting to cause as much damage and disruption to those employed by companies who work to keep the wheels of the British economy turning.
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If you worked for one branch of a company and got paid x amount of money and then found out that another branch of the company and found out its staff who did exactly the same job got paid x+++ amount of money, you would naturally ask 1) why? and 2) pay us the same.

That may well have been an argument to have raised in the pre-privatisation days when all were employees of British Rail but I am sure that you are well aware of the existing realities of life under the existing system of franchising.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Just getting the popcorn ready as this will be fun.

 

[the sniper]

Looking at recent RMT involvement in a number of existing and proposed debates, I am sure that the conspiracy theorists will have a field day of fertile imagination in seeing the RMT as the "shock troops" of the "Momentum" Socialist Alliance in attempting to cause as much damage and disruption to those employed by companies who work to keep the wheels of the British economy turning.

Aren't you one of these conspiracy theorists Paul...?!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Aren't you one of these conspiracy theorists Paul...?!

I am a believer in the old saying..."I see as I find"

 

[lejog]

Quite a few inaccuracies in your post, firstly about drivers terms, and secondly about the rate of inflation.

ASLEF don't know drivers' terms? Also according to the Office of National Statistics:

The Consumer Prices Index (CPI) rose by 0.9% in the year to October 2016, compared with a 1.0% rise in the year to September.

Pray tell us more.

 

[northwichcat]

I think the mood among staff is that Serco Abellio used the excuse that they were limited by the DFT on the final years of the franchise. The franchise was then extended and same excuse used again. During this time Northern fell further behind other TOCs and were one of the lowest paid in the industry anyway. If the new offer is looked at purely on its own it is probably not the worst pay offer for rail staff in the country but the gap between highest paid and lowest is getting wider and Northern staff with their multiple stops probably work harder than longer distance TOCS who also benefit from better working conditions on newer stock.

The fairest comparison would probably be between Northern and ATW - both have Arriva as the parent, both get a similar level of subsidy, both have similar level fares and both have mainly 1980s DMUs making up their rolling stock.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102692/northern_rail/
http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102366/arriva_trains_wales/

To me that looks like there's little difference, the biggest problem is the two tiers of Northern pay for the same role, especially considering part of the former ATN area has well below average living costs, while the nicer places in a commutable distance from Manchester have quite pricey living costs.

Scotrail and Merseyrail would also be in the same sort of category as Northern, if you want to compare the above to non-Arriva TOCs:

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102375/abellio_scotrail/
http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102393/merseyrail/

What needs to be remembered is Northern are still a heavily subsided franchise, their overall parent (DB) hasn't been performing well financially and things like training new drivers requires quite a lot of investment and a return on which won't be seen until they are being utilised to drive the new services. If Northern weren't a train operator I imagine they'd be offering 0% this year and an above inflation increase once the new services are operational.

Intercity and London area TOCs are always going have higher pay than local TOCs elsewhere as they can generate a lot more revenue.
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ASLEF don't know drivers' terms? Also according to the Office of National Statistics:

The rate of RPI was higher but normally there's calls to use CPI instead of RPI as it's a seen as a fairer measure of how the cost of living has risen.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Noone in the southeast can ever earn enough given the absurd house prices especially around London

Not sure to what extent london and the south east weighting comes into train drivers salaries? Surely southeast drivers will always earn more as in real terms it is likely no increase

It looks like some operators have brought the non-London staff up to the same level as London staff: http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/105635/london_midland/ However, in that case it seems the London staff have been shortchanged at the expense of the Midlands staff getting a very good deal. I can't see any North East staff wanting to move to local services out of Euston for just £1,000 extra per annum!

 

[driver_m]

Looking at recent RMT involvement in a number of existing and proposed debates, I am sure that the conspiracy theorists will have a field day of fertile imagination in seeing the RMT as the "shock troops" of the "Momentum" Socialist Alliance in attempting to cause as much damage and disruption to those employed by companies who work to keep the wheels of the British economy turning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That may well have been an argument to have raised in the pre-privatisation days when all were employees of British Rail but I am sure that you are well aware of the existing realities of life under the existing system of franchising.

Yes, I'm in the fortunate position of being well paid and well looked after too. I don't see why my driving colleagues who do the same job and follow the same rules and regs as me cannot pursue those goals too.

 

[wfrank]

Yes, I'm in the fortunate position of being well paid and well looked after too. I don't see why my driving colleagues who do the same job and follow the same rules and regs as me cannot pursue those goals too.

Because Northern drivers pay does not reflect the work they do. The ordinary UK taxpayer earning £22,000 a year for 40 hours,not a train drivers' £50,000 a year for 32 hours is subsidising these luxury wages. If you put up Northern wages,Southern drivers,tube drivers,GW drivers,South Eastern drivers etc who have to open and shut doors will want more to maintain their differential for extra work. Then when they get it, you will say Northern drivers deserve more. That is why some ASLEf drivers get over £56,000 a year for what a relative of mine says in 21 hours a week actually in the cab.
Those of us who love railways are fed up with them being messed up by pure greed. There are only a certain number of meals you can eat in a day, or a certain number of days in a week your wife will tolerate you getting in her way,or a certain number of bags of popcorn you can eat.

 

[whoosh]

Inflation is around 0.9/1% so anything above that would be an above inflation offer.

They've just come off a two year 2.5% or inflation which ever is higher agreement (during which inflation was virtually zero) which included rest day working till Dec 2017.

Drivers have a 32 hour (4.2 day east 4 day west) working week and haven't worked in excess of 35 hours since 2000.

http://www.aslef.org.uk/information/102222/102225/102692/northern_rail/

ASLEF Charter achievements:


32 hour week

(East) No. 35 hour week since October 2000.

(West) No. 35 hour week since Winter TT 2001.



Not sure how you are reading that as they are on a 32 hour week? Which they aren't, for clarity.
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Personally I loathe being taxed to the hilt to subsidise low earners through tax credits, or even worse, 'working families' who are so greedy they'd both go out and work so they get a great big television and two cars and "Me time" and leave their babies in child care with a stranger which is subsidised by people like.... oh yeah, myself. Again.

It's pretty much forcing me to put as much a I possibly can into my (final salary) pension to avoid the taxman.



By the way, if anyone doesn't like their less than train driver wages, you could try applying yourself, if you meet the required standards and can be bothered to fill in an application, and maybe have the commitment to move half way across the country to take up a position.
Or, you could try negotiating with your employer.
Or you could just accept that you haven't yet landed on your feet as far as jobs go, and haven't got a bargaining position from which to negotiate. Hard luck.

 

[northwichcat]

Because Northern drivers pay does not reflect the work they do. The ordinary UK taxpayer earning £22,000 a year for 40 hours,not a train drivers' £50,000 a year for 32 hours is subsidising these luxury wages.

Average person has more socialable working hours than a train driver and wouldn't be start work as a train driver next month.

However, it does seem train drivers get the best of both worlds. In a normal job if your employer funds your training then pay isn't high but if you fund your own training then you can get a reasonable salary. Train drivers tend to hate comparisons with pilots as in comparison they have it so much easier.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Personally I loathe being taxed to the hilt to subsidise low earners through tax credits, or even worse, 'working families' who are so greedy they'd both go out and work so they get a great big television and two cars and "Me time" and leave their babies in child care with a stranger which is subsidised by people like.... oh yeah, myself. Again.
...
Or you could just accept that you haven't yet landed on your feet as far as jobs go, and haven't got a bargaining position from which to negotiate. Hard luck.

I've received both JSA and Tax Credits in the past 10 years but I've given back a hell of a lot more in income tax and NI than I've received in benefits and I imagine most people who've been on benefits are in the same position.

TOCs can only offer high salaries because they can be sure they can get 'revenue support' from the government if their figures don't add up at the end of the year. Where does that revenue support come from? Income tax! Is it fair that someone who can only get a part time job which doesn't meet their living expenses is getting their benefits cut while the likes of Stagecoach and Virgin are claiming revenue support from DfT which they wouldn't need if they didn't pay their staff so much?