Proposed CrossCountry December 2017 timetable change consultation

[Rapidash]

According to those numbers, I've been imagining the full and standing train at 1007 out of Paignton for the last decade.

Anyone who doubts that is more than welcome to join the regulars in the Battlefield Earth recreation that it is.

The MP for the area has already called it in as smelling of the Bovine Affluent that it is.

 

[BantamMenace]

Manchester benefiting quite well

Bristol services extended to Exeter

And the 20.27 to Birmingham now extended to Reading

Does this service and extension run on Sundays?

It would make the last departure for my weekly pilgrimage back down to LMS from LDS become the 19:10 changing in MAN instead of the 18:15 changing at DON.

 

[route101]

Disappointed about the 1225 PLY - GLC getting cut back to EDB. The 2108 EDB to GLC is always busy at the weekend as this is the last XC train (cheaper than Scotrail) from the capital to Motherwell and Glasgow. If they cut this service the latest XC train to Glasgow will now leave around 7pm. Would there be any possibility of introducing a later NCL to GLC service? This would help reduce the impact of both the 1325 PLY to EDB HST being cut back to NCL and the 1225 PLY to GLC being cut back to EDB. It would obviously require a spare voyager to be in Newcastle.

Noticed the Edinburgh and Glasgow services are a lot busier these days . Used to use them for a quiet journey home

 

[D1009]

One of the issues I have with XC is that an irregular user cannot easily find out about which trains are HSTs or doubled up Voyagers. As is often mentioned, the HSTs are clearly marked in the GW timetables for the west country, but not in the XC timetable.

As another example, there is a double Voyager on a Man Picc to Bournemouth and return trip, in the consulted timetable that runs daily at 1245 from Bournemouth (so 1315 from Southampton) northbound. Wouldn't it be a good idea to highlight it in the paper timetables as the only long train of the day? The present day double unit from Bournemouth seems to run Friday only, but later in the afternoon - and its existence is kept almost completely secret from the potential users...

One of the most useful things about this document is that it details which trains are currently diagrammed for 4, 5 or double sets. You can't rely on it on the day however.

Does this service and extension run on Sundays?

It would make the last departure for my weekly pilgrimage back down to LMS from LDS become the 19:10 changing in MAN instead of the 18:15 changing at DON.

I don't think any detailed information about weekend services has been revealed yet. They're always left to the end almost.

 

[tbtc]

1. I love this thread. In a sea of Crayonists and/or nostalgists, this thread is full of sensible opinions.

2. In a world where every other electrification project seems to be having problems, it's rather lucky for XC that LM's 323s will be able to mop up passenger numbers at Bromsgrove (thus allowing some three coach 170s to go down to two coaches)

3. Much discussion about the "oddities" that are getting kept (Paignton almost completely withdrawn, Aberdeen moves to one daytime up/down, rather than an early morning up/down and a later evening up/down) and getting chopped (Guildford, Bath), but no mention of "Cardiff via Bristol" (not to be confused with the Turbostar route via Lydney). Presumably the 07:00 from Cardiff to Bristol provides some useful peak hour capacity (going up from four coaches to five coaches) at a time when you wouldn't get such big numbers from (say) Cheltenham commuting into Bristol, but the 20:15 back from Bristol to Cardiff serves less purpose. Anyone going all the way from Manchester to Cardiff could leave on the Wales & Borders service almost half an hour later and arrive in Cardiff marginally earlier, so it can't be heaving with through passengers. I wondered if this Voyager service would get the chop (beyond Bristol) once the GWML was wired, but that doesn't look likely now...

According to those numbers, I've been imagining the full and standing train at 1007 out of Paignton for the last decade.

Anyone who doubts that is more than welcome to join the regulars in the Battlefield Earth recreation that it is.

The MP for the area has already called it in as smelling of the Bovine Affluent that it is.

"average loads of 88 beyond Exeter" - but will GWR have sufficient capacity to run a Sprinter in the equivalent slot as far as St Davids?

One of the issues I have with XC is that an irregular user cannot easily find out about which trains are HSTs or doubled up Voyagers. As is often mentioned, the HSTs are clearly marked in the GW timetables for the west country, but not in the XC timetable.

As another example, there is a double Voyager on a Man Picc to Bournemouth and return trip, in the consulted timetable that runs daily at 1245 from Bournemouth (so 1315 from Southampton) northbound. Wouldn't it be a good idea to highlight it in the paper timetables as the only long train of the day? The present day double unit from Bournemouth seems to run Friday only, but later in the afternoon - and its existence is kept almost completely secret from the potential users...

Good points

What Summer Saturdays specials?

They effectively stopped quite a few years ago now. Pretty much all that changes in the Summer is a few trains turn left at Aller to go to Paignton vice Plymouth and a couple turn right at Par to go to Newquay instead of Penzance. The number of extra services heading west struggles to get past zero.

Sitting at TM on a summer Saturday nowadays, you'd be hard pressed to tell whether it was a Sat or a weekday outside the peaks.

Memories of a procession of trains, some with Peaks being taken off, replaced with WR locos and sent back North are long gone sadly.

edit - just checked and between 0600 and 1800 last summer there were 14 XC services heading west from TM on a weekday and 15 on a Saturday - just one extra, didn't realise it was that bad, I thought it may have been 2.

I didn't realise things were so sparse either

Does seem a bit odd to leave a unit around at Plymouth for most of the day, but I guess XC couldn't figure out anything productive to do with the unit during the time. Must be a necessary evil to move the unit from a busy morning peak working to a busy evening peak one. Or the unit perhaps goes to Laira for fuelling, or something, or it's a tactical 'hot spare' at Plymouth

Often at that time of day a hot spare is useful as Plymouth to fill in for delayed services

From what I can work out there's only the 220 that does the Derby-Leeds peak hour extra and the 220 that sits at Plymouth from 1048 to 1625 available to do anything extra with...

Good points re the difficulties of slotting stock around (on such a complex network) versus the benefits of a hot spare.

I wonder whether the 07:19 ex Derby (so 09:36 ex Leeds... getting back into Derby just before 11:00... so must leave Derby around 15:00 to become the 16:40 ex Leeds) will be a hot spare at Derby too?

 

[Richard_B]

According to those numbers, I've been imagining the full and standing train at 1007 out of Paignton for the last decade.

Anyone who doubts that is more than welcome to join the regulars in the Battlefield Earth recreation that it is.

The MP for the area has already called it in as smelling of the Bovine Affluent that it is.

Are they mostly going to Exeter and getting off or north of Exeter/west from Newton Abbott though?

Just looking at Paigntons departures. 4 trains to Exeter and beyond between 07:00 and 08:20. Then only 1 direct to Exeter between 0820 and the XC train, which is a stopper, with 1 alternative departure that needs a change at Newton Abbott. I can see why people going to Exeter itself would end up on the XC

 

[michael74]

Are they mostly going to Exeter and getting off or north of Exeter/west from Newton Abbott though?

Just looking at Paigntons departures. 4 trains to Exeter and beyond between 07:00 and 08:20. Then only 1 direct to Exeter between 0820 and the XC train, which is a stopper, with 1 alternative departure that needs a change at Newton Abbott. I can see why people going to Exeter itself would end up on the XC

I use the 10:07 from Paignton every couple of months, loosing it especially in summer is short sighted, it is positively rammed with people going back to the north. The only thing that would sweeten the pill would be if GWR introduced a semi-fast to Exeter from Torbay, that hour on a 142 stopper from Torbay to Exeter can only be described as painful, especially on a hot summers day.

 

[PHILIPE]

I use the 10:07 from Paignton every couple of months, loosing it especially in summer is short sighted, it is positively rammed with people going back to the north. The only thing that would sweeten the pill would be if GWR introduced a semi-fast to Exeter from Torbay, that hour on a 142 stopper from Torbay to Exeter can only be described as painful, especially on a hot summers day.

Pardon me for correction. Would be 143 not 142.

 

[michael74]

Pardon me for correction. Would be 143 not 142.

Indeed, fat fingers small keys

 

[Martin_1981]

What Summer Saturdays specials?

They effectively stopped quite a few years ago now. Pretty much all that changes in the Summer is a few trains turn left at Aller to go to Paignton vice Plymouth and a couple turn right at Par to go to Newquay instead of Penzance. The number of extra services heading west struggles to get past zero.

Sitting at TM on a summer Saturday nowadays, you'd be hard pressed to tell whether it was a Sat or a weekday outside the peaks.

Memories of a procession of trains, some with Peaks being taken off, replaced with WR locos and sent back North are long gone sadly.

edit - just checked and between 0600 and 1800 last summer there were 14 XC services heading west from TM on a weekday and 15 on a Saturday - just one extra, didn't realise it was that bad, I thought it may have been 2.

Yes today's Summer Saturday services are simply extensions to the weekday timetable, with two Plymouth HST's diverted to/from Paignton and some Voyager services which normally terminate at Bristol or Exeter extended to Paignton, in addition to one additional HST operated Penzance train. Nothing wildly exciting anymore. No weird and wonderful stopping patterns like there used to be. Remember those running non stop from Bristol to Plymouth and the Birmingham avoiders running non stop from Bristol to Derby?

 

[Richard_B]

I use the 10:07 from Paignton every couple of months, loosing it especially in summer is short sighted, it is positively rammed with people going back to the north. The only thing that would sweeten the pill would be if GWR introduced a semi-fast to Exeter from Torbay, that hour on a 142 stopper from Torbay to Exeter can only be described as painful, especially on a hot summers day.

Then your experience disagrees with the research that XC say they have done

You'd hope GWR would be able to use the path mind.

 

[D1009]

Then your experience disagrees with the research that XC say they have done

You'd hope GWR would be able to use the path mind.

Yes OK the train might be busy, but what percentage of the people travelling from Paignton are going beyond Exeter? Those that are not should be GWR's business anyway.

 

[jhy44]

The neglect of the Nottingham - Birmingham - Cardiff route is disgraceful. In peak periods the 3 car trains are jam packed with many standing into and out of Birmingham, so reducing them to two cars is a very bad suggestion.

True, and as much as I'd like to see improvements as a regular user, I think the changes are fair as the vast majority get in and out at Bromsgrove, removing that stop will massively relieve overcrowding, very few people stand between Cheltenham - Bromsgrove.

(Source: I commute Cardiff - Birmingham 1-2 times per week, know those services far too well for my liking).

As for the Nottingham - Birmingham leg, I couldn't comment.

 

[nw1]

One of the issues I have with XC is that an irregular user cannot easily find out about which trains are HSTs or doubled up Voyagers. As is often mentioned, the HSTs are clearly marked in the GW timetables for the west country, but not in the XC timetable.

As another example, there is a double Voyager on a Man Picc to Bournemouth and return trip, in the consulted timetable that runs daily at 1245 from Bournemouth (so 1315 from Southampton) northbound. Wouldn't it be a good idea to highlight it in the paper timetables as the only long train of the day? The present day double unit from Bournemouth seems to run Friday only, but later in the afternoon - and its existence is kept almost completely secret from the potential users...

I'd have said going north at that time of the day is a bit early - obviously way too early for peak travelling north from Southampton, probably too early for peak loads from Reading or Oxford and a bit early to catch the Birmingham commuter traffic (must be 1550 odd out of Birmingham?) Why is it this particular train that's a double unit I wonder? Why not keep the second unit at Bournemouth for attachment to a later and busier service?

ISTR the one that's regularly double on Fridays is 1515 from Southampton. It's a great shame they don't have the stock to make the Southampton to Manchester trains longer - most of the time these are so overcrowded (between Reading/Oxford and Birmingham) that, at any vaguely busy time I actively avoid them beyond Reading when travelling north from Southampton, preferring the Reading starters north of Reading (even if it means a longer journey with a change at Reading).
Even the 1104 out of Birmingham yesterday was full as far as Oxford - not a time of day or year I would expect a train to be that busy. Quiet beyond Oxford though - once they have the stock they really need to improve capacity on the Reading/Oxford to Birmingham section.

 

[Richard_B]

Even the 1104 out of Birmingham yesterday was full as far as Oxford - not a time of day or year I would expect a train to be that busy. Quiet beyond Oxford though - once they have the stock they really need to improve capacity on the Reading/Oxford to Birmingham section.

Once they have the stock they need to improve the capacity nearly everywhere

 

[Envoy]

They may well be removing Bromsgrove from the Cardiff to Nottingham services but I thought they were going to add Worcester Parkway - when it opens?

Another factor to consider is what will GWR do once they introduce the December 2018 schedules with the new Intercity Express fleet? I once read that were not going to stop at Bristol Parkway. That would mean that passengers to/from south Wales would either have to use the ATW all stops service to Cheltenham or the Cardiff to Nottingham XC services in order to reach the Midlands and north east. The Cardiff > Nottingham XC trains are pretty well loaded now so I hate to think how they will cope with a reduction in seats on some services and with the Bristol Parkway alternative route removed. Presumably XC will put up the prices on the direct Cardiff to Birmingham and Nottingham trains in order to reduce demand as their trains are too short?

Clearly, XC do not have enough rolling stock. Perhaps they should be allocated more 170’s freed up from Scotland instead of Southern getting them?

It is unfortunate that the only Voyager service that visits Cardiff goes to/from Manchester via Bristol Temple Meads. South Wales is well served with the hourly ATW service to Manchester using the shorter and quicker route via the Marches. It would be more beneficial if that Voyager could be used as a Cardiff > Bristol Parkway > Newcastle service with Temple Meads passengers using the enhanced GWR Intercity Express service for the short link between Temple Meads & Parkway. XC say they plan to use a 5 coach Voyager on this service due to overcrowding between Newport & Temple Meads. Surely, once GWR get the 165’s & 166’s on services linking Cardiff with Bristol Temple Meads as 5 coach trains, the ‘attraction’ of people using the Voyager service will diminish?

PS. The ATW services to/from Cheltenham are often operated by Pacers. Yes, Pacers on a mainline!

 

[sprinterguy]

I'd have said going north at that time of the day is a bit early - obviously way too early for peak travelling north from Southampton, probably too early for peak loads from Reading or Oxford and a bit early to catch the Birmingham commuter traffic (must be 1550 odd out of Birmingham?) Why is it this particular train that's a double unit I wonder? Why not keep the second unit at Bournemouth for attachment to a later and busier service?

The stock that forms the 12:45 Bournemouth - Manchester previously forms a morning peak service into Birmingham, the 07:00 Manchester - Bournemouth, and goes on to form a busy evening peak service out of Manchester, the 18:05 Manchester - Plymouth.

The 12:45 Bournemouth - Manchester forms the 15:57 departure from Birmingham New Street and as a four car unit is extremely busy departing from there - I often wonder if the day is not far off where I am simply unable to board that train. Using a five carriage unit in place of a four carriage one would achieve much in alleviating overcrowding, but I fear that, with supressed demand for travel and ever rising passenger numbers, within twelve months the train would be just as crowded as at present. Plus as noted above using an eight carriage formation on this diagram benefits two peak hour workings.

 

[DarloRich]

Regarding Aberdeen, there is very little by way of regular, 'commuter' flow beyond Darlington in all reality. And a good number of these passengers are not that time sensitive, as they travel up, stay over night and then fly out to a rig the following day.

If anything these timings for the Aberdeen services will be far better for offshore workers, a large proportion of which live here in the North East. My dad has been one of them for the last few years. An early afternoon arrival will enable those travelling to arrive at a decent time for their overnight stay prior to departing the next day. On the return, the first wave or two of helicopters will be well timed for a 1520 departure, although whether they will mop up much with the VTEC departure at 1452 in front of it I'm not sure.

There are a surprising number of these chaps living on Teesside aren't there? These new services will be very welcome i should think.

Perhaps there could be additional stops at Tamworth and Burton on Trent from some of the HST and other though services that do not currently stop there.

I would like to see more Tamworth stops (i could provide XC with a list of suitable trains ) to allow for a connection into the LM service and to avoid New Street.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd have said going north at that time of the day is a bit early - obviously way too early for peak travelling north from Southampton, probably too early for peak loads from Reading or Oxford and a bit early to catch the Birmingham commuter traffic (must be 1550 odd out of Birmingham?) Why is it this particular train that's a double unit I wonder? Why not keep the second unit at Bournemouth for attachment to a later and busier service?

Yes, 1557 off Birmingham on current timings. Possibly about an hour or two before it would be most useful there? I expect in the morning it is about 0900 into Birmingham. Can't see any fundamental difficulties with your proposal to hold a unit at Bournemouth for a couple of hours.

Perhaps though this doubling up is aimed at the Southampton cruise ship turnover though, probably a daytime flow although I can't say for sure. Still a bit daft if they don't advertise it of course.

 

[lejog]

I would like to see more Tamworth stops (i could provide XC with a list of suitable trains ) to allow for a connection into the LM service and to avoid New Street.

Why not reply to the consultation (see p17) instead of getting nowhere posting on message boards?

 

[MCR247]

I always find the lack of Tamworth stops weird, even if they want to keep the Reading -Newcastles non stop between brum and derby, why not swap between burton and Tamworth on the Plymouth runs?

 

[Envoy]

Why not reply to the consultation (see p17) instead of getting nowhere posting on message boards?

I would think that it is fairly safe to assume that the press offices of the various TOC’s (& Network Rail) do monitor these forums.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

PS. The ATW services to/from Cheltenham are often operated by Pacers. Yes, Pacers on a mainline!

Can't let this pass without comment. How do you define mainline? There are plenty of routes in the north that form mainlines and have regular Pacer operation over them. Or how about Devon Metro services between Exeter and Newton Abbot?

 

[michael74]

Then your experience disagrees with the research that XC say they have done

You'd hope GWR would be able to use the path mind.

Indeed (especially in Summer) an awful lot going to Brum and further onto Manchester, a fair few do get off at Bristol for South Wales. I would hope GWR could bring in a fast Torbay - Exeter train.

 

[nw1]

The stock that forms the 12:45 Bournemouth - Manchester previously forms a morning peak service into Birmingham, the 07:00 Manchester - Bournemouth, and goes on to form a busy evening peak service out of Manchester, the 18:05 Manchester - Plymouth.

The 12:45 Bournemouth - Manchester forms the 15:57 departure from Birmingham New Street and as a four car unit is extremely busy departing from there - I often wonder if the day is not far off where I am simply unable to board that train. Using a five carriage unit in place of a four carriage one would achieve much in alleviating overcrowding, but I fear that, with supressed demand for travel and ever rising passenger numbers, within twelve months the train would be just as crowded as at present. Plus as noted above using an eight carriage formation on this diagram benefits two peak hour workings.

Hate to think what the 1657 and 1757 are like in that case! I am amazed how busy many services are outside what I would consider vaguely peak hours - say 0730 to 1000 arrivals into major cities on Monday-Friday and 1600-1900 departing from major cities.

As you say though, I imagine the reason for the doubling up on this train rather than one of the two following ones is that it can also form a peak service out of Manchester, while the next two would leave Manchester well after the peak.

XC above all simply need more stock. The excuse that trains would be too long for platforms would not apply to XC - I'd imagine their trains could be as long as 10 carriages and still fit onto the platforms of most of their stations. I guess they simply didn't anticipate demand when they ordered the Voyagers.

 

[Envoy]

Can't let this pass without comment. How do you define mainline? There are plenty of routes in the north that form mainlines and have regular Pacer operation over them. Or how about Devon Metro services between Exeter and Newton Abbot?

I would define ‘mainline’ as routes that have medium to long distance trains. So, the line along the north shore of the Severn estuary I would class as a mainline as it carries services between Cardiff and Nottingham and would be carrying passengers who could well making longer journeys - such as Swansea to Newcastle. Branch lines, on the other hand, would be for shorter journeys - usually within local areas, such as the Valley lines in south Wales or the Truro to Falmouth service. These lines do not carry long/ medium distance trains.

In the case of the Exeter to Newton Abbot stoppers, these are operating on a main line but over a relatively short distance. In the case of the Cheltenham/Gloucester ATW services with Pacers, these are travelling 60 miles or so to reach Cardiff with some going even further west. Clearly, one of the most unacceptable journeys to be made by Pacers!

 

[DarloRich]

Why not reply to the consultation (see p17) instead of getting nowhere posting on message boards?

maybe I have already

 

[sprinterguy]

Hate to think what the 1657 and 1757 are like in that case!

The 17:57 does okay as a 5-car in my experience, although I do prefer it on a Friday when it runs as eight. The 16:57 is at least as crowded as the train an hour before though, often worse, despite the extra carriage (5 versus 4).

 

[Kettledrum]

XC above all simply need more stock. The excuse that trains would be too long for platforms would not apply to XC - I'd imagine their trains could be as long as 10 carriages and still fit onto the platforms of most of their stations. I guess they simply didn't anticipate demand when they ordered the Voyagers.

Absolutely right. If they had the stock, they could double many of all their train lengths (obviously not HSTs and still fit on many of the platforms.

In the central core of their routes, if prices were made more reasonable I believe they could run many of their serves as double units and still fill every seat. That's an indication of how over-capacity many of the trains I see are, and how much suppressed demand there is.

Obviously I have no statistical evidence that you could put in a business case other than photos of terribly over-crowded platforms and over-crowded
trains and other photos of stationary traffic on the M5, M42 and M1 where people choose to use their cars as the trains are so expensive and so crowded - including sometimes me.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I would define ‘mainline’ as routes that have medium to long distance trains. So, the line along the north shore of the Severn estuary I would class as a mainline as it carries services between Cardiff and Nottingham and would be carrying passengers who could well making longer journeys - such as Swansea to Newcastle. Branch lines, on the other hand, would be for shorter journeys - usually within local areas, such as the Valley lines in south Wales or the Truro to Falmouth service. These lines do not carry long/ medium distance trains.

In the case of the Exeter to Newton Abbot stoppers, these are operating on a main line but over a relatively short distance. In the case of the Cheltenham/Gloucester ATW services with Pacers, these are travelling 60 miles or so to reach Cardiff with some going even further west. Clearly, one of the most unacceptable journeys to be made by Pacers!

So what do you make of Leeds to Morecambe, 74 miles and Pacer operated quite often? The fact is we all know Pacers are cheap and nasty but we can't just withdraw them all from service overnight. And the TOCs still saddled with them have no realistic way to confine them to specific routes. [/OT]