Aviation Discussion

[Butts]

When your competitors are Jet2 and Ryanair.....Monarch is the classy one.

Back in the '90s, Monarch actually did use to have the Monarch Scheduled Crown Service which was known as the gold standard of leisure travel and was easily on a par with what BA provide on leisure routes now, probably better. Nowadays not so much.

I went to Florida with Monarch back in the eighties from Manchester stopping in Bangor Maine to refuel and then fly down to Florida. It was great we were allowed off the aircraft to stretch our legs and have a coffee/drink while it was filling up.

Can't remember the type probably a Dakota

 

[atillathehunn]

I went to Florida with Monarch back in the eighties from Manchester stopping in Bangor Maine to refuel and then fly down to Florida. It was great we were allowed off the aircraft to stretch our legs and have a coffee/drink while it was filling up.

Can't remember the type probably a Dakota

And I bet there was mandatory smoking as well. And the navigation equipment was a bloke with the AA atlas.

 

[Butts]

And I bet there was mandatory smoking as well. And the navigation equipment was a bloke with the AA atlas.

It was a lot more relaxed the whole process. I may have had the odd snout en-route.

Navigation was by the stars

 

[anme]

The more time progresses, the more I can't see why I wouldn't just fly easyJet. The only one reason I can now see is Heathrow, which for many people is better located than Luton or Gatwick, and T5 is better than Luton or Gatwick.

If the third runway (no doubt including a world-class new terminal as good as T2 or T5) means easyJet opens up a base at Heathrow, which I believe they intend to do, I can see no reason for BA short-haul to exist any more. They might as well just pack up, flog the aircraft off and get into a codeshare agreement with easyJet and Flymaybe.

I can't share your enthusiasm for Easyjet Neil. I find them grim and expensive. Nevertheless, surely Easyjet are not going to agree to codeshare arrangements at any reasonable cost, which would screw up their demand management (Easyjet's short haul flights are the reason they exist, BA's exist to a fairly large degree as feeders for their long haul business); would lead to penalties when their planes are delayed and passengers miss onward connections; and would require flexibility to carry passengers arriving from delayed long haul flights. They would also have far less opportunity to 'nickel and dime' connecting passengers (which is where they make a lot of their money) for luggage, and would have to allow more carry on luggage for such passengers (the one bag rule is absolutely not acceptable in this market).

It's a totally different business.

 

[atillathehunn]

I can't share your enthusiasm for Easyjet Neil. I find them grim and expensive. Nevertheless, surely Easyjet are not going to agree to codeshare arrangements at any reasonable cost, which would screw up their demand management (Easyjet's short haul flights are the reason they exist, BA's exist to a fairly large degree as feeders for their long haul business); would lead to penalties when their planes are delayed and passengers miss onward connections; and would require flexibility to carry passengers arriving from delayed long haul flights. They would also have far less opportunity to 'nickel and dime' connecting passengers (which is where they make a lot of their money) for luggage, and would have to allow more carry on luggage for such passengers (the one bag rule is absolutely not acceptable in this market).

It's a totally different business.

I agree with most of this, though I don't quite agree with your last statement.

Flybe who 'nickel and dime' in much the same way as Sleazy offer connections onto AirFrance, Etihad, Emirates and Cathay. Policy of main carrier applies. I assume Flybe claims the cost from the main long-haul airline. So this could happen.

But they won't. They may start to offer their own connections, however.

 

[anme]

I agree with most of this, though I don't quite agree with your last statement.

Flybe who 'nickel and dime' in much the same way as Sleazy offer connections onto AirFrance, Etihad, Emirates and Cathay. Policy of main carrier applies. I assume Flybe claims the cost from the main long-haul airline. So this could happen.

Fair point, although I suspect Flybe's business model is rather different to Sleazy's.

But they won't. They may start to offer their own connections, however.

It's interesting that no major budget airline until Norwegian tried long haul flights (anyone know how Norwegian are doing?). I'm guessing the high investment, lack of "open skies" arrangements and lack of immediate scale have put them off. They might also worry whether than can grow the market enough (long haul flights are less of an "impulse buy" for a weekend away), and the ease with which established players could price them out of a market (major flag carriers with a large long haul operations can afford to cut prices on a single route to kill off a competitor).

 

[atillathehunn]

Fair point, although I suspect Flybe's business model is rather different to Sleazy's.



It's interesting that no major budget airline until Norwegian tried long haul flights (anyone know how Norwegian are doing?). I'm guessing the high investment, lack of "open skies" arrangements and lack of immediate scale have put them off. They might also worry whether than can grow the market enough (long haul flights are less of an "impulse buy" for a weekend away), and the ease with which established players could price them out of a market (major flag carriers with a large long haul operations can afford to cut prices on a single route to kill off a competitor).

They certainly don't have Sleazy's size and scale, and Flybe is stuck with a load of routes I'm pretty sure it doesn't want, but there are enough similarities to make a comparison.

However, your comment about no other LCCs doing long haul isn't true. Eurowings out of Germany has been flying to Bangkok for ages out of DUS and CGN. That's a LCC party flight or so I'm told.

AirAsia flies from various areas of SE Asia to Australia, for example. They are LCC, and offer product differentiation to benefit from price discrimination.

Tiger, Scoot both offer long haul, Scoot even to Greece now out of SIN.

WOW air out of Iceland offer long haul (mid-haul Europe side, long-haul USA side).

Fastjet in TZ... I don't know what they are, neither do they, but they offer what would probably be described in Europe as long haul, but down there just mid-haul.

 

[jon0844]

People might have been craving a greater choice of food (or indeed any) but are you seriously suggesting they also wanted to pay for the same drinks that were formally free?

I'd like to see the market research on that one :roll:

It's all down to how you ask the questions. I am sure I could come up with a survey that would reveal everyone wants to pay for a more varied menu and faster service (on account of the trolley moving quicker when not giving out complimentary items).

Throw in customers wanting more choice, value (cheaper ticket prices, perhaps) and whatever and I could reveal that 'BA customers welcome new charges for food/drink on flights' quite legitmately(ish).

 

[anme]

They certainly don't have Sleazy's size and scale, and Flybe is stuck with a load of routes I'm pretty sure it doesn't want, but there are enough similarities to make a comparison.

However, your comment about no other LCCs doing long haul isn't true. Eurowings out of Germany has been flying to Bangkok for ages out of DUS and CGN. That's a LCC party flight or so I'm told.

AirAsia flies from various areas of SE Asia to Australia, for example. They are LCC, and offer product differentiation to benefit from price discrimination.

Tiger, Scoot both offer long haul, Scoot even to Greece now out of SIN.

WOW air out of Iceland offer long haul (mid-haul Europe side, long-haul USA side).

Fastjet in TZ... I don't know what they are, neither do they, but they offer what would probably be described in Europe as long haul, but down there just mid-haul.

All fair points. In my defence, I did say no *major* budget airline before Norwegian tried long haul flights. My point is that budget airlines have, overall, made little impact on long haul travel, as shown by the fact that such services can be summarised in one post on this forum.

Speaking personally, I travel long haul quite a lot, to and from a variety of places. I've never used a long haul budget flight, and more tellingly I don't think a long haul budget flight has ever even been an option for me to use.

 

[atillathehunn]

All fair points. In my defence, I did say no *major* budget airline before Norwegian tried long haul flights. My point is that budget airlines have, overall, made little impact on long haul travel, as shown by the fact that such services can be summarised in one post on this forum.

Speaking personally, I travel long haul quite a lot, to and from a variety of places. I've never used a long haul budget flight, and more tellingly I don't think a long haul budget flight has ever even been an option for me to use.

I think they have made an impact, but not, perhaps, to the Europe based business traveller (making a huge number of assumptions about you, but I know nothing...).

If you're a leisure traveller to BKK, Fort Lauderdale, Miami, LA (maybe?), I think they've made a huge impact. But it's very specific to those routes, I admit. My evidence rests on the behaviour of British Airways. They have launched Fort Lauderdale to fight Norwegian, and OAK to fight... somebody I'm sure. But California is an rising tourist destination for even the budget conscious.

So yes, I admit for Europe based outside of these routes perhaps not so much difference.

But if you were based out of Asia and travelling round the region, AirAsia and their 'business' product is a game changer. Cheap, punctual, regular routes, connections in the true sense offered, good food for puchase (their local dishes are pretty good).

Though I have heard in the past from MoL that the reason Ryanair isn't across the pond is lack of aircraft. And by this I assume he means no second hand Dreamliners or other efficient aircraft on the market yet that he can snap up for a song. So perhaps when the newer aircraft offering a better per passenger yield due to lower fuel bills are coming on second hand then perhaps you will start to see this type of flight coming up on your corporate booking.

Just my two cents, and when I travel I'm not travelling on well trodden routes, so little impact on me, too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except Ryanair prefer new aircraft, which *they* then sell on.

Perhaps the price isn't attractive enough.

 

[anme]

I think they have made an impact, but not, perhaps, to the Europe based business traveller (making a huge number of assumptions about you, but I know nothing...).

If you're a leisure traveller to BKK, Fort Lauderdale, Miami, LA (maybe?), I think they've made a huge impact. But it's very specific to those routes, I admit. My evidence rests on the behaviour of British Airways. They have launched Fort Lauderdale to fight Norwegian, and OAK to fight... somebody I'm sure. But California is an rising tourist destination for even the budget conscious.

I can't comment on the Florida routes, but as far as I know Norwegian are the only budget airline operating long haul flights to LA. If they were actually that cheap both Skyscanner my travel department would be making me use them.

As for Oakland - that's really a business destination in Silicon Valley. Same for nearby San Jose which BA recently restarted flights to. I expect plenty of high value business travellers on both of those routes, benefitting from the fact the Silicon Valley has terrible infrastructure and horrible traffic problems, meaning that flying even a few miles closer to your destination can significantly reduce travel time.

So yes, I admit for Europe based outside of these routes perhaps not so much difference.

But if you were based out of Asia and travelling round the region, AirAsia and their 'business' product is a game changer. Cheap, punctual, regular routes, connections in the true sense offered, good food for puchase (their local dishes are pretty good).

Looking at their route map and their fleet of planes, isn't Air Asia a short haul airline? They only have A320s at the moment with some A321s on order. If the numbers on Wikipedia are correct, they have only 80 planes (compare with 363 for Ryanair) so are a relatively small player. I see they are also deferring aircraft orders, so presumably they are growing more slowly than expected.

Though I have heard in the past from MoL that the reason Ryanair isn't across the pond is lack of aircraft. And by this I assume he means no second hand Dreamliners or other efficient aircraft on the market yet that he can snap up for a song. So perhaps when the newer aircraft offering a better per passenger yield due to lower fuel bills are coming on second hand then perhaps you will start to see this type of flight coming up on your corporate booking.

Just my two cents, and when I travel I'm not travelling on well trodden routes, so little impact on me, too.

We will see. I also expected Ryanair et al to start budget long haul flights. I'm sure that lack of aircraft doesn't help but the long haul business model is also very different to short haul and I suspect it doesn't transfer very well.

 

[atillathehunn]

I can't comment on the Florida routes, but as far as I know Norwegian are the only budget airline operating long haul flights to LA. If they were actually that cheap both Skyscanner my travel department would be making me use them.

As for Oakland - that's really a business destination in Silicon Valley. Same for nearby San Jose which BA recently restarted flights to. I expect plenty of high value business travellers on both of those routes, benefitting from the fact the Silicon Valley has terrible infrastructure and horrible traffic problems, meaning that flying even a few miles closer to your destination can significantly reduce travel time.



Looking at their route map and their fleet of planes, isn't Air Asia a short haul airline? They only have A320s at the moment with some A321s on order. If the numbers on Wikipedia are correct, they have only 80 planes (compare with 363 for Ryanair) so are a relatively small player. I see they are also deferring aircraft orders, so presumably they are growing more slowly than expected.



We will see. I also expected Ryanair et al to start budget long haul flights. I'm sure that lack of aircraft doesn't help but the long haul business model is also very different to short haul and I suspect it doesn't transfer very well.

Yes, long haul LCC is different, but people make it work.

I've just done a random booking to LA from London (Any) on Skyscanner, return, and WOW and DY came out as less than BA. Wow substantially, then DY, then combination, then legacy carriers. By magnitude of £100ish return cheaper.

AirAsia certainly doesn't have the routemap of Ryanair, but they are a behemouth.

However, AirAsia fly to Saudi Arabia, Australia (Perth, Darwin, Sydney, Melbourne), Japan, Iran, India. While not ULR, Melbourne - Singapore is a good 8 hours or so.

They have A330s.

Scoot have 787s, as do Tiger.

I know nothing of the Silicon Valley area, but if business destination, why start OAK from LGW on the poor 777s operated out of there?

 

[gsnedders]

I know nothing of the Silicon Valley area, but if business destination, why start OAK from LGW on the poor 777s operated out of there?

Silicon Valley is really the south-western side of the bay, whereas Oakland is the north-east. I presume the appeal of OAK is for leisure travellers going to San Francisco?

It's worthwhile pointing out BA have gone from flying two 747-400s on LHR–SFO per day about three/four years ago to flying a A380 and a 777(-???) on LHR–SFO (really about half way between San Francisco and Silicon Valley), a 787-900 to LHR–SJC (in Silicon Valley proper), and a 777(-???) to OAK.

 

[anme]

Yes, long haul LCC is different, but people make it work.

I've just done a random booking to LA from London (Any) on Skyscanner, return, and WOW and DY came out as less than BA. Wow substantially, then DY, then combination, then legacy carriers. By magnitude of £100ish return cheaper.

Not sure who DY are. I see Norwegian are indeed cheap, but they only fly five times per week using relatively small aircraft out of approx 58 flights per week between London and Los Angeles, so their impact is relatively low. British Airways operate two A380s per day on the route for much of the year. I don't normally fly from London which probably accounts for why I haven't seen Norwegian come up. Do they offer proper connections or code shares via London?

BTW I avoid the term "legacy carriers", which suggests the carriers will disappear in the long term.

AirAsia certainly doesn't have the routemap of Ryanair, but they are a behemouth.

However, AirAsia fly to Saudi Arabia, Australia (Perth, Darwin, Sydney, Melbourne), Japan, Iran, India. While not ULR, Melbourne - Singapore is a good 8 hours or so.

They have A330s.

Ah - I see that Air Asia X is the long haul airline (seems rather separate to Air Asia). That's why I didn't spot them before - apologies. They have 31 planes which probably indeed makes them the largest long haul budget airline. (I can't see a fleet size for Norwegian long haul). For comparison, Qantas have 51 long haul aircraft operating just from Australia.

Scoot have 787s, as do Tiger.

I know nothing of the Silicon Valley area, but if business destination, why start OAK from LGW on the poor 777s operated out of there?

I've been there and I can assure you that Oakland is not a tourist destination. It makes sense to have some business-oriented flights from Gatwick as it is more convenient than Heathrow for a fair number of people, and the Bay Area is already well served from Heathrow. Being honest, Oakland is also a second/third string destination, and BA probably don't want to waste precious slots at Heathrow, and the nicest aircraft, on it. Of course, there is no such thing as a purely business or a purely tourist destination, and I can see the Oakland flight getting some use from budget conscious tour operators and the like getting tourists to CA at the lowest possible cost.
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Silicon Valley is really the south-western side of the bay, whereas Oakland is the north-east. I presume the appeal of OAK is for leisure travellers going to San Francisco?

There's a lot of technology companies in the Oakland area. It's cheaper (although still very expensive) than the area between San Francisco and San Jose and it's now probably growing faster (maybe a reason why BA have started to serve it). It's a spill over from/growth area of Silicon Valley.

 

[ivanhoe]

Aer Lingus have been flying to San Francisco for a few years now.T he added bonus of clearing US immigration in Dublin makes it for those of us who are not close to London a good choice. I've flown to Chicago from Brum and I like their 8 seats across in the A330'S. Good connection as well from Brum both there and coming back

 

[ian959]

Looking at their route map and their fleet of planes, isn't Air Asia a short haul airline? They only have A320s at the moment with some A321s on order. If the numbers on Wikipedia are correct, they have only 80 planes (compare with 363 for Ryanair) so are a relatively small player. I see they are also deferring aircraft orders, so presumably they are growing more slowly than expected.

Air Asia (which includes all the various permutations of Air Asia, Air Asia X, Air Asia Zest, Indonesian AirAsia et al) is the biggest LCC carrier in Asia I believe. The reason why it is deferring orders is more to do with MASSIVE competition rather than slow growth. The overall market is growing quite rapidly across Asia and especially China, but the number of airlines, and thus capacity, is growing at a huge rate. It seems to be generally recognised that capacity is growing at a much quicker rate than demand though, pushing down yields and causing major problems in some countries (India and Indonesia spring to mind).

 

[fowler9]

I'm not sure if we are just talking flights from the UK here but surely Jetstar, Air Transat and Air Berlin are low cost carriers doing long haul flights. Air Transat from the UK.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I'm not sure if we are just talking flights from the UK here but surely Jetstar, Air Transat and Air Berlin are low cost carriers doing long haul flights. Air Transat from the UK.

Their costs are not quite as low as the true LCCs but I agree with your basic point. Note also that Thomas Cook are effectively the UK arm of Condorflug and there is some common resourcing of their fleets. I believe some German TATL leisure markets are routed by codeshare on Lufthansa via Manchester. The very existence of such an arrangement tells you it is not a true low-cost operation but nevertheless Thomas Cook are very competitive on fares to the few US markets they serve.

 

[fowler9]

Their costs are not quite as low as the true LCCs but I agree with your basic point. Note also that Thomas Cook are effectively the UK arm of Condorflug and there is some common resourcing of their fleets. I believe some German TATL leisure markets are routed by codeshare on Lufthansa via Manchester. The very existence of such an arrangement tells you it is not a true low-cost operation but nevertheless Thomas Cook are very competitive on fares to the few US markets they serve.

I think China Southern and Hainan drift in to this crossover almost low cost market. I thought Jetstar were most definitely a low cost carrier.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I think China Southern and Hainan drift in to this crossover almost low cost market. I thought Jetstar were most definitely a low cost carrier.

Jetstar domestic (Australia) most definitely are so their international operations almost certainly are too. It's not clear that the same can be said for Air Berlin or Air Transat if only due to the diverse fleets they have operated. As for Chinese operators, which are mostly state-owned in some way or another, they are certainly free of various costs at their end which doubtless helps!

 

[fowler9]

Jetstar domestic (Australia) most definitely are so their international operations almost certainly are too. It's not clear that the same can be said for Air Berlin or Air Transat if only due to the diverse fleets they have operated. As for Chinese operators, which are mostly state-owned in some way or another, they are certainly free of various costs at their end which doubtless helps!

Yeah I understand. Only flew with Jetstar once from Brisbane to Auckland and that was on a round the world ticket with Oneworld. Kind of surprised that the flight from Brisbane to Auckland was Jetstar since unless I am mistaken Qantas also do the route and are part of Oneworld. Jetstar gave us a free drink and a cookie but I think that was because the flight was delayed several hours due to a storm. We had spent a month staying with relatives on the Gold Coast, from their house you could see Coolangatta Airport. Jetstar had many flights a day from there but 2 were A330's going to Japan and somewhere else I think. Air Asia also had about 2 A330's a day.

My favourite thing was that one end of the runway was in Queensland and the other in New South Wales. The clocks changed in New South Wales but not Queensland while we were there. You could be going down the runway and the hour would change before you got off the ground. Ha ha.

 

[atillathehunn]

We definitely weren't just talking UK.

Anme and I were discussing the effect that low cost carriers in the long haul market have on the decision of the average business traveller. I've not been near a computer all weekend so missed a bit!

Anme: super happy to take your word as true on Oakland. Never been. Unable to, passport is filled with stamps America isn't too keen on. The San Francisco area is extremely well catered for, though! I've seen it suggested that OAK and SFO are pretty equitable in terms of travel time to downtown San Francisco.

The very nature of someone's comment above suggests that the low-cost carriers doing long-haul have to adapt a little bit to suit the market, and as such cannot quite be said to be LCCs.

Air Berlin is an oddball. It's neither. It's OneWorld member, doing intensive short haul and pretty significant long haul (though not from the UK). A quick trawl through the forums on Flyertalk (a site worth a visit) suggests that it does have an influence on business travellers. While often focused on the holiday markets, they offer long haul out of Berlin westward, which basically nobody else does.

As for Transat, I really don't know what they are either, but I think due to lack of experience rather than empirical evidence. They market themself as a leisure airline, but this doesn't per se mean they are LCC.

Jetstar et al are definitely LCC. They may offer a differentiated product, but singular project offering does not necessarily mean that they are not a LCC.

The conclusions: anecdotal evidence does nothing for us. We have no data, and I'm not quite interested enough to go hunting for it. But route coverage is starting to spread, therefore touching more travellers.

Fowler9, that's a pretty fun fact! Got to play havoc with any computers on board as they pass through the timezones to taxi. Thank goodness for UTC.

Jetstar is wholly owned by Qantas, so I would imagine that this explains you being on board on a OW RTW ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

Anme: super happy to take your word as true on Oakland. Never been. Unable to, passport is filled with stamps America isn't too keen on.

You can actually get a second passport in some circumstances for that very reason.

http://philarcher.org/diary/2016/secondpassport/

 

[Tim R-T-C]

You can actually get a second passport in some circumstances for that very reason.

http://philarcher.org/diary/2016/secondpassport/

Interesting read. As per my understanding, my Iranian visa will preclude me from an ESTA for some time.

Getting a US visa looks pretty complex, needing to go for an interview in person - has anyone tried one?

 

[fowler9]

We definitely weren't just talking UK.

Anme and I were discussing the effect that low cost carriers in the long haul market have on the decision of the average business traveller. I've not been near a computer all weekend so missed a bit!

Anme: super happy to take your word as true on Oakland. Never been. Unable to, passport is filled with stamps America isn't too keen on. The San Francisco area is extremely well catered for, though! I've seen it suggested that OAK and SFO are pretty equitable in terms of travel time to downtown San Francisco.

The very nature of someone's comment above suggests that the low-cost carriers doing long-haul have to adapt a little bit to suit the market, and as such cannot quite be said to be LCCs.

Air Berlin is an oddball. It's neither. It's OneWorld member, doing intensive short haul and pretty significant long haul (though not from the UK). A quick trawl through the forums on Flyertalk (a site worth a visit) suggests that it does have an influence on business travellers. While often focused on the holiday markets, they offer long haul out of Berlin westward, which basically nobody else does.

As for Transat, I really don't know what they are either, but I think due to lack of experience rather than empirical evidence. They market themself as a leisure airline, but this doesn't per se mean they are LCC.

Jetstar et al are definitely LCC. They may offer a differentiated product, but singular project offering does not necessarily mean that they are not a LCC.

The conclusions: anecdotal evidence does nothing for us. We have no data, and I'm not quite interested enough to go hunting for it. But route coverage is starting to spread, therefore touching more travellers.

Fowler9, that's a pretty fun fact! Got to play havoc with any computers on board as they pass through the timezones to taxi. Thank goodness for UTC.

Jetstar is wholly owned by Qantas, so I would imagine that this explains you being on board on a OW RTW ticket.

Cheers for the input mate, I totally forgot Jetstar were owned by Qantas, I'm a dope, ha ha. We flew Qantas from Hong Kong to Melbourne on the same trip which was fun, I really enjoyed the service and they possibly had the best food offered on our flights on that trip.

Yeah Gold Coast Airport was bizarre, he whole of the Gold Coast was to be honest, ha ha. The daughter of the family we stayed with lived in a different timezone in Tweed Heads, a 10 minute drive away. Well, these things happen all over the place but the runway is possibly the quirkiest.

 

[telstarbox]

In the news today that easyJet will be setting up an EU-based operation along the lines of easyJet Switzerland, to deal with possible outcomes of Brexit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the news today that easyJet will be setting up an EU-based operation along the lines of easyJet Switzerland, to deal with possible outcomes of Brexit.

Actually not just that - they will be moving the holding company to the EU, with EZY UK becoming a subsidiary. Lost tax revenue there then.

 

[atillathehunn]

You can actually get a second passport in some circumstances for that very reason.

http://philarcher.org/diary/2016/secondpassport/

I may consider it one day. The application for the visa doesn't look terribly fun. I'll probably just visit other countries.
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Cheers for the input mate, I totally forgot Jetstar were owned by Qantas, I'm a dope, ha ha. We flew Qantas from Hong Kong to Melbourne on the same trip which was fun, I really enjoyed the service and they possibly had the best food offered on our flights on that trip.

Yeah Gold Coast Airport was bizarre, he whole of the Gold Coast was to be honest, ha ha. The daughter of the family we stayed with lived in a different timezone in Tweed Heads, a 10 minute drive away. Well, these things happen all over the place but the runway is possibly the quirkiest.

Of course it happens, though often the time zone boundaries don't cut through an urban area! I'm thinking back through the land borders I've done involving a time zone and none I can think of took place in an urban area.

Not a fan of the Gold Coast?
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Cheers for the input mate, I totally forgot Jetstar were owned by Qantas, I'm a dope, ha ha. We flew Qantas from Hong Kong to Melbourne on the same trip which was fun, I really enjoyed the service and they possibly had the best food offered on our flights on that trip.

Yeah Gold Coast Airport was bizarre, he whole of the Gold Coast was to be honest, ha ha. The daughter of the family we stayed with lived in a different timezone in Tweed Heads, a 10 minute drive away. Well, these things happen all over the place but the runway is possibly the quirkiest.

Good to hear you enjoyed Qantas! I think I slept through all of my flights with them, but it seems I missed good food.
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Actually not just that - they will be moving the holding company to the EU, with EZY UK becoming a subsidiary. Lost tax revenue there then.

Another British success story. Our myopia competing against our ignorance and everybody suffers.

 

[fowler9]

I may consider it one day. The application for the visa doesn't look terribly fun. I'll probably just visit other countries.
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Of course it happens, though often the time zone boundaries don't cut through an urban area! I'm thinking back through the land borders I've done involving a time zone and none I can think of took place in an urban area.

Not a fan of the Gold Coast?
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Good to hear you enjoyed Qantas! I think I slept through all of my flights with them, but it seems I missed good food.

No, loved the Gold Coast. Not my usual choice of destination as it is a beach resort but we stayed for a month with distant relatives of my ex. As I say the house was near the airport and it was an amazing house. Of the weekend the family took us out in to the countryside. Also the man of the house was the chief electrical engineer for a bus manufacturer called Bustech. He took me to the factory and all of the Surfside Buses garages. It was heaven, one Saturday morning he took me for a ride on the new CDi down the Gold Coast Highway. First proper Double Decker designed and (Mostly) built in Australia.Another day we went to the massive Railway Museum in Ipswich near Brisbane. Another day we went to a Mac Truck meet at a speedway track in a place called Gatton, Mad Max country. Went to loads of scenically beautiful places to, they film such epics as "I'm a Celebrity" in the hills nearby. It was amazing because of the people we stayed with rather what I thought of the Gold Coast itself. That was more like any modern highrise holiday place with a very nice beach.

That said the days we spent sat on the beach were incredible to. It was Sperm Whale migration season, we would sit on the beach having a read and just off the beach these mother sperm whales and their calves would jump out of the water playing. It was incredible. We also went to other places in Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong and South America on the same trip, we were away for about 7 months.

Oh yeah, the Qantas flight, loved it after BA from London to Hong Kong. Staff were a bit surly. Looked put out when I asked for a second beer on a 12 hour flight (I wasn't getting messed up). The Qantas flight from Hong Kong to Melbourne was on VH-OEB as well. Made up to get some photos of it in the Melbourne Grand Prix colours for my dad. Got some photos on the track as well in Melbourne. The cabin crew were amazing though. My favourite flight on that trip though was from Auckland to Santiago on an LAN A340. Capped off y the fact it was Chrimbo Eve 2011.