Halton Curve upgrade is on

[Railman]

How much spare capacity is there under the river? The idea of all Merseyrail trains arriving in liverpool on its underground network seems attractive, but it is surely way beyond the scope of the original Mersey railway for outer suburban traffic and even inter-regional (Wrexham - Liverpool) trains to all go through the tunnel. So interchange has to be the only alternative. Having said that if the local north Wirral suburbs have sufficient demand should a new interchange be considered towards Neston and a 3rd rail Merseyrail service from there, possibly coupling up at Bidston to conserve train paths?

 

[fowler9]

Not sure there is the time or the paths through the tunnel for anything else.

 

[Railman]

I thought there could not be much capacity left in the tunnels. Thinking big maybe a new tunnel and a "crossrail" approach should be funded by central government as part of the Northern powerhouse.
I am probably in the minority but re-opening the Liverpool and Manchester central stations would release a lot of capacity issues in the North west city areas. Time to think big and not just fiddle about with what you have got left.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I thought there could not be much capacity left in the tunnels. Thinking big maybe a new tunnel and a "crossrail" approach should be funded by central government as part of the Northern powerhouse.
I am probably in the minority but re-opening the Liverpool and Manchester central stations would release a lot of capacity issues in the North west city areas. Time to think big and not just fiddle about with what you have got left.

Have you recently been to the site of what once was the former Manchester Central railway station recently and seen what has now become of the area in question with approach rail bridges removed, currently unused decking in a sorry state of rust, etc, and a certain Manchester Metrolink system hub from Cornbrook to Deansgate-Castlefield using the approaches. I am sure that TfGM will have a lot to say about your aspiration for the future reuse of that facility.

"Think big" to use your phrase is exactly what TfGM will claim that they have done with the Manchester Metrolink system to reinvigorate the transportation systems of the area covered by their remit and Governmental approval has just been granted for the latest expansion to that system, the Trafford Park line to the Trafford Centre.

 

[8A Rail]

I thought there could not be much capacity left in the tunnels. Thinking big maybe a new tunnel and a "crossrail" approach should be funded by central government as part of the Northern powerhouse.
I am probably in the minority but re-opening the Liverpool and Manchester central stations would release a lot of capacity issues in the North west city areas. Time to think big and not just fiddle about with what you have got left.

Yes, dream on! You really think the Government is going to give us a free handout to do such a thing? The government won't even give us a toll free river crossing for the eventual FOUR road crossings over/under the river. Where else is there in the UK, were ALL cross river travel is tolled or charge for? So ask for another (rail) tunnel is vitually asking the impossible not without some monetary pre conditions!

As for original Liverpool Central Station area, I dont think any tracks will be going back soon there due to existing buildings in and around the area. There was proposals to redevelop the whole area 10 years ago (see: http://www.centralvillageliverpool.com) but has gone very quiet over recent years with the said website not updated since 2012! May be a chance of other proposals but probably better of expanding the underground Central Station which I think is the long term aim.

 

[urbophile]

I don't think there is need for another rail tunnel under the Mersey. But with hindsight it is a pity that instead of the loop line it didn't link into the Wapping or Waterloo tunnels and on towards St Helens and/or the airport via Mossley Hill and (what is now) South Parkway . I can't see any government (certainly not this one) coming up with funding but such a link could still be achieved at less cost than the mega-schemes suggested above.

 

[Railman]

I know the chances of mega investment is practically zero, but if 800 houses and a motorway, are not seen as a reason to stop an extra runway, then there is nothing that cant be done with enough vision and money.
In the late 60s and 70s how many mainline platforms were lost between Liverpool Central and Exchange stations, services being crushed into lime street or lost altogether. To try to put them back by "tweeking" the available infrastructure is only playing with the situation. Should Liverpool have mainline trains to Scotland, London, Manchester and the East coast as well as North Wales and Birmingham of course it should, but when you also run the local suburban trains in with them, all down the cutting to Lime Street you are asking for trouble. Unless of course there is some "joined up" thinking incorporating HS2 and 3?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Yes, dream on! You really think the Government is going to give us a free handout to do such a thing? The government won't even give us a toll free river crossing for the eventual FOUR road crossings over/under the river. Where else is there in the UK, were ALL cross river travel is tolled or charge for? So ask for another (rail) tunnel is vitually asking the impossible not without some monetary pre conditions!

The Thames East of Woolwich? (Yes, all crossings currently = only one crossing, but more are planned it is still the case that all cross-river travel there is tolled. And by the way, I don't think the tolling is a bad thing. Traffic is bad enough as it is, you need some way to discourage people from driving if they don't need to).

 

[8A Rail]

The Thames East of Woolwich? (Yes, all crossings currently = only one crossing, but more are planned it is still the case that all cross-river travel there is tolled. And by the way, I don't think the tolling is a bad thing. Traffic is bad enough as it is, you need some way to discourage people from driving if they don't need to).

One crossing? Forgive me for laughing but majority of crossings across the Thames are free and remain free too! As for discouraging people from driving - why do you think a fourth crossing across the Mersey is being built, so it dont get used??? hock:

Tolling is no bad thing - mmm in moderation yes but on every river crossing though - again it dont happen in any other part of the country! Sorry!

 

[Holly]

Extending to Birkenhead North requires the use of an extra unit which I believe was the original reason for cutting back to Bidston.

Bad decision. Better to keep the extra unit.
Birkenhead North has twice the service to/from Liverpool compared with Bidston and also has more platform faces.
If memory serves a crossover was removed at Birkenhead North and would need to be reinstated.

 

[urbophile]

I know the chances of mega investment is practically zero, but if 800 houses and a motorway, are not seen as a reason to stop an extra runway, then there is nothing that cant be done with enough vision and money.
In the late 60s and 70s how many mainline platforms were lost between Liverpool Central and Exchange stations, services being crushed into lime street or lost altogether. To try to put them back by "tweeking" the available infrastructure is only playing with the situation. Should Liverpool have mainline trains to Scotland, London, Manchester and the East coast as well as North Wales and Birmingham of course it should, but when you also run the local suburban trains in with them, all down the cutting to Lime Street you are asking for trouble. Unless of course there is some "joined up" thinking incorporating HS2 and 3?

Joined up thinking? From a British government? Especially if it concerns something that won't happen before the next election. And even more especially if it concerns North of Watford.

I agree entirely. My solution would be for all City Line trains (i.e. mainline suburban) to run down one or both of the two currently disused tunnels, either to a new terminus (but that would be more short-term thinking) or to connect with Merseyrail Northern Line (via an expanded Central) or the Wirral line (via a new link to James Street, or via the same expanded Central and the original line, which is now stock movements only.)

 

[daikilo]

Joined up thinking? From a British government? Especially if it concerns something that won't happen before the next election. And even more especially if it concerns North of Watford.

I agree entirely. My solution would be for all City Line trains (i.e. mainline suburban) to run down one or both of the two currently disused tunnels, either to a new terminus (but that would be more short-term thinking) or to connect with Merseyrail Northern Line (via an expanded Central) or the Wirral line (via a new link to James Street, or via the same expanded Central and the original line, which is now stock movements only.)

No problem if "cityline" trains run through Liverpool Central to become Ormskirk or Kirkby's hence no need to expand Central, just modify the approaches at some point.

 

[urbophile]

I wouldn't say 'no problem'. Operations-wise, possibly. In terms of handling the increased number of passengers at an already congested and very badly-designed station, it could be chaotic. It really needs an additional island platform and repositioning of the escalators.

 

[Bevan Price]

Joined up thinking? From a British government? Especially if it concerns something that won't happen before the next election. And even more especially if it concerns North of Watford.

I agree entirely. My solution would be for all City Line trains (i.e. mainline suburban) to run down one or both of the two currently disused tunnels, either to a new terminus (but that would be more short-term thinking) or to connect with Merseyrail Northern Line (via an expanded Central) or the Wirral line (via a new link to James Street, or via the same expanded Central and the original line, which is now stock movements only.)

Diverting City Line services away from Lime Street would be a bad move, as you would lose connectivity with long distance services.

Of the two suggested tunnels, Waterloo would be the worst option, probably having no suitable location for a station close to the busiest parts of the city centre. A new connection from Wapping Tunnel to Liverpool Central might be feasible, but would overload the infrastructure (entrance/exit) at Central, even if they could add another pair of platforms underground.

 

[fowler9]

At the end of the day there are a lot of great ideas for what could be done in Liverpool but none of it is going to be done in the short term (50 to 100 years) without a complete shift in the way this country does things. Even with a complete change it will take 50 to 100 years. We are talking billions of pounds of investment which is going on Heathrows third runway.

 

[kieron]

Not sure there is the time or the paths through the tunnel for anything else.

Network Rail did this study in 2010 (so any dates in it are probably well off). It raises the flat junction at Bidston E Jn as a potential issue, but states that there could be scope to alter the junctions it refers to when Merseyrail is resignalled. It also lists as problems the wear caused by track curvature in the Loop, and the limited passenger access to the platforms at some of the stations.

It doesn't raise concerns about headway through the tunnel, though. This does rely on the fact that the network uses rolling stock with identical abilities on all services.

The government won't even give us a toll free river crossing for the eventual FOUR road crossings over/under the river. Where else is there in the UK, were ALL cross river travel is tolled or charge for?

Aust?

I don't think the proposal is to toll everyone, anyway. From what I remember, Runcorn and Widnes residents won't be charged, and (much like with Aust) you only get charged if you take a vehicle of a specific type across. I don't know if they'll charge the emergency services (I think the tunnels do).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

One crossing? Forgive me for laughing but majority of crossings across the Thames are free and remain free too! As for discouraging people from driving - why do you think a fourth crossing across the Mersey is being built, so it dont get used??? hock:

Tolling is no bad thing - mmm in moderation yes but on every river crossing though - again it dont happen in any other part of the country! Sorry!

It may only be one crossing, but it is also the only crossing within quite a large area. Saying that the majority of the Thames crossings are free is a bit like me pointing out that the majority of the Mersey crossings are free: They are because the Mersey starts in Manchester, but that's completely irrelevant to someone who wants to cross the Mersey around Liverpool, just as the fact that most Thames crossings are free is completely irrelevant to someone who wants to cross at Dartford.

It's a pretty minor point in the context of this discussion - I'm raising it because you seemed to imply Liverpool was being treated particularly badly with the road crossing situation there, which doesn't seem to be the case when the situation in East London is much the same.

Incidentally there's another similarity: A new crossing is being built at Runcorn: Upon opening both it and the existing crossing will become tolled, which is exactly the same as what is happening in London, at Blackwall/Silvertown (Except that the Silvertown crossing is so far only at planning stage).

 

[Camden]

Splitting London up into chunks to make the argument conveniently fit, while lumping Manchester and Liverpool together, doesn't really cut it as a comparator.

Liverpool is a city divorced from its suburbia by tolls, and yes it is true that it is getting a new bridge only on the condition that it too has tolls, and that the only existing free crossing is also tolled.

These extra tolls also won't go into improving transportation in the city, but into a private operator.

I think if you want to point at anything as a comparator here it would be the A14. Improvements to this announced at the same time, a costly enterprise in itself. Was due to be tolled. But politically expedient, in that case, for those tolls to be abolished.

 

[urbophile]

Which brings us back to the topic of this thread. Tolls only apply to road traffic: when the Halton curve opens there will be two toll-free crossings (albeit charging fares, but no more I think than for comparable journeys elsewhere.)

 

[8A Rail]

........... I don't think the proposal is to toll everyone, anyway. From what I remember, Runcorn and Widnes residents won't be charged, and (much like with Aust) you only get charged if you take a vehicle of a specific type across. I don't know if they'll charge the emergency services (I think the tunnels do).

As per Mersey Tunnels, all vehicles are being charged in some form or another for both bridges. Yes residents with Halton Borough Council will be exempt but ironically, some people (including me) live nearer to the bridge's that some of the Halton BC residents!! Currently there are some respresentations being made to Government to allow residents from further afield within the Liverpool City Region not to be charged but I dont see that happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It may only be one crossing, but it is also the only crossing within quite a large area. Saying that the majority of the Thames crossings are free is a bit like me pointing out that the majority of the Mersey crossings are free: They are because the Mersey starts in Manchester, but that's completely irrelevant to someone who wants to cross the Mersey around Liverpool, just as the fact that most Thames crossings are free is completely irrelevant to someone who wants to cross at Dartford.

It's a pretty minor point in the context of this discussion - I'm raising it because you seemed to imply Liverpool was being treated particularly badly with the road crossing situation there, which doesn't seem to be the case when the situation in East London is much the same.

Incidentally there's another similarity: A new crossing is being built at Runcorn: Upon opening both it and the existing crossing will become tolled, which is exactly the same as what is happening in London, at Blackwall/Silvertown (Except that the Silvertown crossing is so far only at planning stage).

"Camden" has made a good comment with regards to your thoughts and he is correct about Liverpool (City Region) being divorced from its suburbia and IS being treated unfairly. Again I emphasis its FOUR major crossings not one or two and if you live in Liverpool (& surrounding area), the first free crossing's across the Mersey is Warrington if you wish to go south or just to go to the Wirral and West Cheshire (& vice versa). Just to clarify about mentioning the Thames, I was directly referring to those in the London area and not further afield.

Unfortunately, when the Halton Curve opens up and trains start operating, they won't change habits of the majority of people who travel around the whole area sadly, hence why the road bridge is opening next year.

 

[Railman]

If you are promoting a "Liverpool city region" it would seem a bit daft to charge people a Toll to come to it?????
London has the advantage /disadvantage of having too many people wanting to come to it. hence house prices etc.
Improving infrastructure is a major boost to any area, with the well know talk of a national housing shortage, where are the next large towns to be built or expanded in this area? is the rail network up to it or capable of providing for it??
Going back to the original thread has a TOC and stock been identified to run the service in 2018.

 

[kieron]

As per Mersey Tunnels, all vehicles are being charged in some form or another for both bridges.

On the Mersey Tunnel web site, it says motorcycles are not charged. There's no mention of a toll for pedal cycles anywhere that I can see, so I suspect they're the same.

I have no idea if any details of the toll schedule for the Runcorn Bridge have been published yet.

Yes residents with Halton Borough Council will be exempt but ironically, some people (including me) live nearer to the bridge's that some of the Halton BC residents!! Currently there are some respresentations being made to Government to allow residents from further afield within the Liverpool City Region not to be charged but I dont see that happening.

Surely that was bound to be the case with anything like that? Neston being closer to the Mersey tunnel than Speke is, for instance? The choice of what to do is always going to be somewhat arbitrary, and I can't say if someone from Speke has a better or worse claim than someone from Frodsham or Penketh.

Introducing a toll on a route which already carries a lot of traffic is bound to affect a lot of people. The concession is just a way to reduce the negative effects on those most severely affected.

 

[8A Rail]

On the Mersey Tunnel web site, it says motorcycles are not charged. There's no mention of a toll for pedal cycles anywhere that I can see, so I suspect they're the same.

I have no idea if any details of the toll schedule for the Runcorn Bridge have been published yet.

Surely that was bound to be the case with anything like that? Neston being closer to the Mersey tunnel than Speke is, for instance? The choice of what to do is always going to be somewhat arbitrary, and I can't say if someone from Speke has a better or worse claim than someone from Frodsham or Penketh.

Introducing a toll on a route which already carries a lot of traffic is bound to affect a lot of people. The concession is just a way to reduce the negative effects on those most severely affected.

Here is the link on the New Mersey bridge tolls - http://www.merseygateway.co.uk/tolls/.

Bicycles are not allowed in the Mersey Tunnels hence no toll. I have the feeling they may not be allowed on the new bridge as I am unable to established if there is a walkway on the bridge or not. The road itself will be 3 lanes in each direction and part of a "Clearway" too. The latter suggests no walkway, therefore no bicycles although they will be able to cross the old Runcorn/Widnes Bridge as at present.

I understand the points about residents from other parts of the area re charging and valid too. But it is a large area on both sides of the river and it is making a invisible barrier between North and South of the Mersey (west of Warrington), as well for example as increasing transport costs for local business's which ultimately be passed on to the customer.

The Halton Curve may assist but regardless how you wish to cross the Mersey west of Warrington, you will be charged one way or another. Anyway, in fairness to the original topic of the thread, I will leave the matter at that. Ta!

 

[Green Lane]

Bicycles are not allowed in the Mersey Tunnels hence no toll. !

Generally that is correct athough they are allowed through the Queensway tunnel only at certain hours i.e. mostly early mornings and late evenings:-
http://www.merseytunnels.co.uk/nossl/html/faq.php#14

 

[childwallblues]

I travelled through the Wallasey Tunnel yesterday afternoon towards Wallasey at 1400 and returning at 1600. Both journeys had long queues at the tolls and on the return journey the queue from Liverpool was into the tunnel itself In Liverpool there was quite a queue awaiting entry.
Whilst I am against the tolls I think that they are a necessary evil. If a person using a train or bus (or even the ferry when it works) had toll free access a good many would change to the car making the situation in Liverpool more gridlocked than ever.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They are because the Mersey starts in Manchester, but that's completely irrelevant to someone who wants to cross the Mersey around Liverpool, just as the fact that most Thames crossings are free is completely irrelevant to someone who wants to cross at Dartford.

There are road crossings of the Mersey in both Cheadle and Stockport that come before the Manchester area that are used by countless road travellers every day of the year.

 

[Upton]

I travelled through the Wallasey Tunnel yesterday afternoon towards Wallasey at 1400 and returning at 1600. Both journeys had long queues at the tolls and on the return journey the queue from Liverpool was into the tunnel itself In Liverpool there was quite a queue awaiting entry.
Whilst I am against the tolls I think that they are a necessary evil. If a person using a train or bus (or even the ferry when it works) had toll free access a good many would change to the car making the situation in Liverpool more gridlocked than ever.

Surely it's time for the Mersey Tunnels and the Tyne ones too, to do the same as the Dartford Crossing and bring in pay on line or in shops, within 24 hours of using the tunnels via registration number plate recognition?

 

[DJH1971]

As per Mersey Tunnels, all vehicles are being charged in some form or another for both bridges. Yes residents with Halton Borough Council will be exempt but ironically, some people (including me) live nearer to the bridge's that some of the Halton BC residents!! Currently there are some respresentations being made to Government to allow residents from further afield within the Liverpool City Region not to be charged but I dont see that happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


"Camden" has made a good comment with regards to your thoughts and he is correct about Liverpool (City Region) being divorced from its suburbia and IS being treated unfairly. Again I emphasis its FOUR major crossings not one or two and if you live in Liverpool (& surrounding area), the first free crossing's across the Mersey is Warrington if you wish to go south or just to go to the Wirral and West Cheshire (& vice versa). Just to clarify about mentioning the Thames, I was directly referring to those in the London area and not further afield.

Unfortunately, when the Halton Curve opens up and trains start operating, they won't change habits of the majority of people who travel around the whole area sadly, hence why the road bridge is opening next year.

Warrington Borough Council are none too pleased either, as the tolls will lead to more traffic going through Warrington (via Daresbury and Great Sankey) by motorists seeking to avoid the tolls.

 

[kieron]

Here is the link on the New Mersey bridge tolls - http://www.merseygateway.co.uk/tolls/.

Bicycles are not allowed in the Mersey Tunnels hence no toll.

The tunnel byelaws refer to this. They prohibit cyclists (as well as many other types of vehicle, although I can't see a reference to pedestrians or wheelchairs) in the Wallasey (Queensway) tunnel entirely. They prohibit cyclists under 14 in the Birkenhead tunnel, and prohibit all cyclists during the day on Monday-Friday and summer Sundays. They don't cover Saturdays, but this FOI request says that police have been instructed to prevent cyclists from using it during certain hours by a Mr Kevin Haggar.

I have the feeling they may not be allowed on the new bridge as I am unable to established if there is a walkway on the bridge or not. The road itself will be 3 lanes in each direction and part of a "Clearway" too. The latter suggests no walkway, therefore no bicycles although they will be able to cross the old Runcorn/Widnes Bridge as at present.

I don't know about walkways, but article 36 of the order for building the bridge does say that you will only be able to access it if you are carried by a motor vehicle. It also specifies specific classes from a separate place, but I haven't looked at them.

For what it's worth, you can cycle on most of the clearways I'm familiar with. It's not very pleasant in most cases, though.

Surely it's time for the Mersey Tunnels and the Tyne ones too, to do the same as the Dartford Crossing and bring in pay on line or in shops, within 24 hours of using the tunnels via registration number plate recognition?

That depends. Preventing people from paying cash could reduce congestion, or it could just move it to the next junction along.

I would try to link this post to the topic, but I doubt many people (certainly ones who don't live in Halton borough) would drive to Runcorn to catch a train via Chester, whatever happened with the bridge.

 

[childwallblues]

As Keiron states 8A Rail is wrong in his post.
If one is brave enough you can cycle through the Queensway Tunnel Sunday to Friday 2000-0600 and Saturday 2000-0700.