German ICE Services - Not That Fast?

[LNW-GW Joint]

I had a series of ICE runs through Germany this week (Dortmund-Berlin-Leipzig-Erfurt-Fulda-Nuremberg-Munich).
I'm not overly familiar with ICE types and performance, but I found myself mostly on ICE-T trains (class 411/5) which are rated at 230kph - not much more than the classic 200kph/125mph.
They duly stuck at 230kph on the new 300kph line between Leipzig-Erfurt, and also Fulda-Wurzburg.
The maximum speed I noticed from the on-board displays on a class 403 rated at 380kph was 288kph, between Nuremberg and Ingoldstadt.
So the German NBS are not delivering to their potential.
Is this typical of how NBS lines are worked?

At Eisenach I also noted a nice Cantus Stadler FLIRT unit on a Bebra train, and even an ex-DR Soviet-built class 132 diesel (DB 232) on an engineering train.
These were all the rage what I first visited the DDR in the late 70s.

 

[Groningen]

The only 300 km per hour are Troisdorf - Frankfurt, Nuernberg - Ingolstadt and Leipzig - Erfurt.
250: Koeln - Dueren, Mannheim - Offenburg/Stuttgart, Hannover - Wuerzburg and Wolfsburg - Berlin
The rest is maximum 200.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Had a journey from Cologne to Frankfurt (IIRC) a few years ago, where we tootled along at a whopping...120km/h for a significant distance, and still managed to arrive at intermediate stations early!

 

[Groningen]

The fastest Koeln Hbf - Frankfurt Flughafen i can find is 47 minutes. Only if Troisdorf is passed than the service becomes really fast. Compare that with an IC via Koblenz and Mainz and it takes 2 hours and 6 minutes.

 

[Passenger John]

September last year we were going to Frankfurt from St. Pancras, the section between Cologne and Frankfurt watching the speed display reached 300kph several times and held the speed there even reaching 303kph at the fastest. It was a non stop service from Cologne to Frankfurt Airport where we changed for Nuremberg

 

[317666]

ICE-T trains have a lower top speed because they were designed to improve services on existing routes by tilting, rather than run on dedicated high-speed lines. Also, an ICE-3 is rated at 320km/h, not 380 - if I remember correctly the only place they actually get up to 320 is the LGV Est on Paris services.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I have been on some ICE Trains mainly between, Frankfurt/Koln/Brussels and it's reached 300kph.

 

[duesselmartin]

Often ICE run on classic line trundling along at a slow pace. Oberhausen-Amsterdam or Munich to Stuttgart are typical

 

[gordonthemoron]

ICE-T Berlin-Ostseebad Binz 178 Miles, about 3.5 hours, mind the train did stop at about 10 stations

 

[30907]

ICE-T Berlin-Ostseebad Binz 178 Miles, about 3.5 hours, mind the train did stop at about 10 stations

And IIRC the linespeed is 120km/h, but I presume its through from Munich or Frankfurt so gets some high speed mileage. Bit like running an HST to Penzance.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's not so much the slower running at classic line speed I was meaning, it was the inability of many ICE trains to reach the maximum speed of NBS lines.

Do ICE-Ts actually tilt on classic lines (ie run at higher than normal line speed on curves)?

 

[gordonthemoron]

I have noticed ICE-Ts tilt between Nuremburg and Leipzig, but they weren't going that fast, also considering that the Metropolitan set can maintain an ICE-T timetable it suggests that tilt is not speeding them up. I wonder if the bogie problems experienced in 2008 have stopped ICE-Ts from tilting much.

The DB Regio tilting DMUs have a much more pronounced tilt and seem to go faster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

DB seems, from experience, to have no fear of running round un-canted corners quite quickly, vastly more so than usual UK practice, with little regard for comfort. So this doesn't surprise me that much.

 

[HowardGWR]

Could not signalling capacity not be the restraining factor on some lines, rather than the capacity of the ICE to go faster?

 

[317666]

Could not signalling capacity not be the restraining factor on some lines, rather than the capacity of the ICE to go faster?

Yes, also track condition or the signals themselves - the main line from Berlin to Dresden was still limited to 120km/h for the most part until a few years ago (I know ICEs don't run on that but it's an example).

 

[Groningen]

Dresden and Leipzig have about the same distance to Berlin. Yet; Dresden is 2 hours and Leipzig is 40 minutes less than Dresden.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Dresden and Leipzig have about the same distance to Berlin. Yet; Dresden is 2 hours and Leipzig is 40 minutes less than Dresden.

I think the Dresden route is in the process of being upgraded (with trains going a longer route for the time being).
There is also the anomaly of the exit from Berlin having to be via the Anhalter Bahn (the Leipzig route) and then a dog-leg round the outer ring to reach the original Dresdner Bahn.
I think it's all tied up with upgrades needed to the old route via Lichtenrade, which currently reduces to a single track S-Bahn line before it reaches the Aussenring, a legacy of the divided city.
It's all supposed to be sorted when the route provides fast access to the new Brandenburg airport to replace Schönefeld (which is a whole other saga).

 

[Senex]

I think the Dresden route is in the process of being upgraded (with trains going a longer route for the time being).
There is also the anomaly of the exit from Berlin having to be via the Anhalter Bahn (the Leipzig route) and then a dog-leg round the outer ring to reach the original Dresdner Bahn.
I think it's all tied up with upgrades needed to the old route via Lichtenrade, which currently reduces to a single track S-Bahn line before it reaches the Aussenring, a legacy of the divided city.
It's all supposed to be sorted when the route provides fast access to the new Brandenburg airport to replace Schönefeld (which is a whole other saga).

The Dresden line was the first to be upgraded for 100-mph running after reunification but was then allowed to deteriorate very badly. The fact that it was in a better state than most in 1990 meant that it was not the first to have major money spent, and by the time its turn came round the purse-strings had already been very significantly tightened. Thus work that should have been completed many years ago has still not been done, and for quite some years now jobs have not been able to benefit from the accelerated planning procedures. What is being done now is what should have been done years ago -- bringing a well-aligned route up to 200-km/h standards. The current programme of works sees traffic diverted to the older route via the Leipzig main line as far as Jüterbog and then through Falkenberg to Röderau on the Leipzig-Dresden line.

At the Dresden end of the line a massive programme of work between Abzw Az (Zitschewig) and Pirna through DD-Neustadt and DD Hbf is now complete except for the cut-off that would allow 200-km/h instead of 120 between Böhla and Weinböhla.

The Berlin end is much more of a problem. The old Dresden line should have been restored between Abzw Priesterweg (main line) and Blankenfelde a long time ago and well in time for the originally-planned opening date of the BBI airport. Anyone who has used the Leipzig line will have seen the preparations at the junction, including the flyover bridge. If the Dresden line had had separate S-Bahn tracks instead of just being a two-track line, then planning would have been very much easier as what would have been involved would have been the restoration of a railway on which rights had never been given up instead of the new construction that provision of a four-track route demanded. The problems have involved going through Lichtenrade on the level, and the inhabitants have been able to frustrate all DB plans for years past. This means that Dresden-line trains have to head south on the Leipzig line to Großbeeren and there turn on to a new curve taking them on to the Genshagener Heide Lange Kurve and thus on to the Außenring (BAR) in an easterly direction. They then have to turn south on to the Dresden line at Glasower Damm. This diversion adds some ten minutes to running times. It also means that the two-track Leipzig main line is not capable of taking on the full airport service planned to use the Dresden line on the opening of BBI.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

On a frequency issue (and without consulting my trusty Cook's) , Dresden - Berlin seems to be 2 hourly ,which seems low for connectivity between 2 major cities . (I was routed via Elsterwede back in the summer due to a "gap" , took forever but was an interesting backwoods journey + a change onto a diesel !) - journey times seem a bit pedantic , but the glory of the Czech buffet cars compensates.

Slightly off topic - Schonefelde station is a miserable place (for obvious reasons - not changed really since I was there in DDR days) and a half hourly "fast" service seems low for the traffic offering ....wouldit be too much to ask for a 15 or 20 min frequency , plus the S Bahn ? ...

 

[33Hz]

Also, an ICE-3 is rated at 320km/h, not 380 - if I remember correctly the only place they actually get up to 320 is the LGV Est on Paris services.

The trains themselves are rated at 330 km/h, but you are correct that they fastest they get to is 320 on the LGV Est, though I have clocked one at well over 300 in Germany as well.