Preserved HST’s?

[pdeaves]

Again how profitable are those?

Profitable enough that the Royal Scotsman people keep running their trains (and usually 66-hauled, too).

 

[gimmea50anyday]

There are some prototype HST vehicles used for the royal train

Although built for use as a power car, 41 001 is actually built as a conventional locomotive and can haul any coaching stock. It also provides conventional 1000v dc ETH as opposed to the production HST 415v 3 phase ac supply. This is why it uses mk3a LHCS on the GCR

 

[CosherB]

"I wonder if a preserved HST could form a luxury train - using the First Class coaches only?"

This is not speculation - it has been recently done in Ireland. Ok the "power car" is a 201 class loco but everything else matches what is being talked about here. A rake of mark 3's refurbished and used for luxury tours.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-grand-hibernian-refurbishment-completed.html

You seem to forget that Belmond already operate a number of "iconic" luxury trains in Great Britain already.

http://www.belmond.com/luxury-trains

I doubt that there is need for a fourth incarnation using Mk3s at this time. Maybe the NB will have a furiously expensive conversion to Mk3s (or even Mk4s?!) one day, but it wouldn't be any time soon! hock:

Hosking is also taking the premium route with his 'blood and custard' Mk1s and Mk2s.

http://www.iconsofsteam.com/travel/

 

[RobShipway]

Profitable enough that the Royal Scotsman people keep running their trains (and usually 66-hauled, too).

I'm sorry but you are way wide of the mark. I along with many of my train loving friends can easily convince my wife to spend a day at a preserved railway if steam loco's are involved but she would laugh out loud at the thought of going to a diesel gala.

A HST will never hold the same attraction that a steam loco has and gender / age is irrelevant.

Also, note that there is plenty of the preserved railways such as the Severn Valley Railway and North and I believe the North Yorkshire Moors Railway does as well, where they have Diesel gala weekends with the likes of class 37, class 55 deltics hauling trains.

I would also say that trains can be romantic, even if not steam hauled. Just look at the Venice-Simplon Orient Express as an example where the Pullman coaches are hauled by a class 47/73/57/ or 67.

 

[47802]

Why does it have to be a luxury train why cannot be a standard charter train with both 1st and standard. Would 2 HST power cars on reduced miles cost much more than 2x47/57 to maintain? also an opportunity to reinvigorate the general charter market with trains that look reasonably modern and offer faster timings.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Profitable enough that the Royal Scotsman people keep running their trains (and usually 66-hauled, too).

don't confuse the kettleistas with facts , they only get all steamed up about it ....

 

[CosherB]

Why does it have to be a luxury train why cannot be a standard charter train with both 1st and standard. Would 2 HST power cars on reduced miles cost much more than 2x47/57 to maintain? also an opportunity to reinvigorate the general charter market with trains that look reasonably modern and offer faster timings.

Have you asked WCRC or Riviera about HST sets? I doubt these 'leading providers' will be moving away from LHCS anytime soon.

 

[47802]

Have you asked WCRC or Riviera about HST sets? I doubt these 'leading providers' will be moving away from LHCS anytime soon.

Well who says it has to be either of those, the fact that the A1 Society are looking at MK3's is an admission that MK1/MK2 are perhaps coming to the end of the line certainly beyond 2020, I'm not sure how charter companies will be affected re the move to controlled emission toilets and the disability regs. A Loco Hauled MK3 set might be more flexible but then a HST's offer good route availability and the potential to get there without it taking all day dodging faster trains on the main lines.

I think post 2020 it probably a case of less charter sets, that are higher quality and worked harder due to reduced number of sets and higher costs of these trains.

 

[rebmcr]

It would be pointless having a HST power car on its own.

One end would still be pointy!

 

[RobShipway]

one end would still be pointy! :d

 

[CosherB]

Well who says it has to be either of those, the fact that the A1 Society are looking at MK3's is an admission that MK1/MK2 are perhaps coming to the end of the line certainly beyond 2020, I'm not sure how charter companies will be affected re the move to controlled emission toilets and the disability regs. A Loco Hauled MK3 set might be more flexible but then a HST's offer good route availability and the potential to get there without it taking all day dodging faster trains on the main lines.

I think post 2020 it probably a case of less charter sets, that are higher quality and worked harder due to reduced number of sets and higher costs of these trains.

There will be plenty of Mk1 and Mk2 stock on the mainline post 2019. Just look at the responses in the attached link to the NR consultation on charter stock and CET:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?root=&dir=%5CConsultation%20Documents%5CCharter

There is a stark contrast between the responses from Belmond and Locomotive Services compared to the likes of Riviera and WCRC. This topic will be at the forefront of charter operators for the next few years, not the minor distraction for some for charter HSTs.

Of course, it may mean that there is great demand for the ex-AGA Mk3s, once released from East Anglia, as these will all be CET fitted.

http://www.garrandale.co.uk/news/garrandale-partners-abellio-greater-anglia

 

[47802]

There will be plenty of Mk1 and Mk2 stock on the mainline post 2019. Just look at the responses in the attached link to the NR consultation on charter stock and CET:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?root=&dir=%5CConsultation%20Documents%5CCharter

There is a stark contrast between the responses from Belmond and Locomotive Services compared to the likes of Riviera and WCRC. This topic will be at the forefront of charter operators for the next few years, not the minor distraction for some for charter HSTs.

Of course, it may mean that there is great demand for the ex-AGA Mk3s, once released from East Anglia, as these will all be CET fitted.

http://www.garrandale.co.uk/news/garrandale-partners-abellio-greater-anglia

Well from the comments there yes there probably will be some MK1/Mk2 stock post 2020 but it may well be a lot less. Still doesn't rule out the possibility of HST's there is also a comment about Northern still potentially wanting charter stock for special events post 2020, and the main leasing companies might decide its worth while retaining a few HST's for short or long term lease to TOC's or Charter companies, especially if there are any HST's going which have been made fully compliant but then find themselves redundant as result of a franchise re-let getting new stock.

The fact is there are potentially lots of if and buts over the next few years and I wouldn't rule anything out, after all I didn't expect the A1 society to suddenly announce there intention to obtain a MK3 set.

Slightly offpoint the response of WCRC is interesting which is basically F*** **F

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think you are overstating it, though. I've heard plenty of people out on day trips commenting how nice and comfortable preserved Mark 3s are, particularly on a warm day with working aircon. The benefits of aircon in summer and working electric heat in autumn and winter are obvious, as opposed to cold, draughty (in winter) and hot (in summer) Mark 1s.

That's a fair point but given the number of Mk3s that are going to be made redundant on the Norwich route in the next few years couldn't you just use those with a loco at the front? I wonder whether it might be cheaper to do that rather than buying and maintaining a full HST set.
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Also, note that there is plenty of the preserved railways such as the Severn Valley Railway and North and I believe the North Yorkshire Moors Railway does as well, where they have Diesel gala weekends with the likes of class 37, class 55 deltics hauling trains.

Yes I know that some preserved railways host diesel gala's but the average visitor (i.e. none rail enthusiasts) to a preserved railway will expect to be hauled by a steam engine. Hence the reason why very few preserved railways operate services without at least one steam loco available for use.
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I would also say that trains can be romantic, even if not steam hauled. Just look at the Venice-Simplon Orient Express as an example where the Pullman coaches are hauled by a class 47/73/57/ or 67.

Train travel is not everyone's idea of romance but clearly it is for some. However I wonder if the potential market is big enough for additional operators armed with HST's.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Profitable enough that the Royal Scotsman people keep running their trains (and usually 66-hauled, too).

Fair enough, that's the kind of example that I was looking for. However surely it's much cheaper to hire in a class 66 than it would be to maintain a full HST set and the consequent impact that would have on profit margins. That's assuming that Royal Scotsman had the funds to buy a HST set in the first place.

 

[MatthewRead]

And we are getting the classic Paxman Valenta engines back aren't we

 

[CosherB]

Fair enough, that's the kind of example that I was looking for. However surely it's much cheaper to hire in a class 66 than it would be to maintain a full HST set and the consequent impact that would have on profit margins. That's assuming that Royal Scotsman had the funds to buy a HST set in the first place.

I'd say that the liklihood of Belmond buying an HST set for heritage tours is approaching zero.

I daresay that the vast majority of the people who pay £2.5k per person for a two night holiday on the Royal Scotsman aren't terribly interested in the fact that motive power is provided by two GBRf Class 66s painted carmine!

We all know the resons why there are 66s on the RS - WCRC lost the contract with Belmond, and GBRf stepped in with modern traction that doesn't require ETS - simple.

Belmond don't do locomotives of their own - DRS / Northern Belle, DBC / VSOE and British Pullman.
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And we are getting the classic Paxman Valenta engines back aren't we

Are we? Who's deep pockets will be emptied by that proposed project?

 

[sprinterguy]

I'd say that the liklihood of Belmond buying an HST set for heritage tours is approaching zero.

I daresay that the vast majority of the people who pay £2.5k per person for a two night holiday on the Royal Scotsman aren't terribly interested in the fact that motive power is provided by two GBRf Class 66s painted carmine!?

I think that we're getting bogged down by the Royal Scotsman analogy. The "Grand Hiberian" is a good example of what can be done with a mark 3 carriage to provide luxury accommodation, but I can't envisage an HST being used as a luxury, multi-day touring train (you'd lose the selling point of the viewing balcony on the Royal Scotsman for starters). I do think, however, that it might be a valid proposition for their operations such as the day cruises operated by the Northern Belle, where passengers are equally indifferent to the motive power utilised but where there would be benefits to operating an air-conditioned, reversible (Northern Belle workings are often top and tailed for operational convenience) formation capable of operating over most of the network with a higher speed capability (I'm envisaging 90 - 100mph rather than 125) to keep out of the way of normal service trains on busy main lines.

It would change the dynamic in that Belmond would have to maintain their own motive power, however, as you point out.

I thought that FM Rail's "Blue Pullman" dining train utilising air-conditioned, top and tailed mark 2s was an excellent, albeit shortlived, concept and it is this sort of market that I can see being relevant to HSTs. Other areas of the railtour market use the nostalgia factor of older carriages as a selling point, or the flexibility that they offer in being able to utilise a range of motive power which is important to the enthusiast crowd, as well as them looking reasonably authentic behind heritage steam locos.

Are we? Who's deep pockets will be emptied by that proposed project?

It's certainly one of the 125 Group's stated aims:

•Ultimately, to raise enough money to purchase some examples of IC 125 rolling stock to enter preservation. Such rolling stock shall include one or more power cars, as near as possible to original operational configuration, but including as a minimum a Paxman Valenta engined power car, Marston cooler group and original shaped front end.

 

[CosherB]

It's certainly one of the 125 Group's stated aims

Fair play to them.

I'm not anti-HST in preservation, on the contrary, they are probably one the outstanding success story on the railways over the last 40 years in this country and should be remembered as such. I just have misgivings over their ongoing use as charter stock beyond the aims of the likes of the 125 Group.

 

[MatthewRead]

I'd say that the liklihood of Belmond buying an HST set for heritage tours is approaching zero.

I daresay that the vast majority of the people who pay £2.5k per person for a two night holiday on the Royal Scotsman aren't terribly interested in the fact that motive power is provided by two GBRf Class 66s painted carmine!

We all know the resons why there are 66s on the RS - WCRC lost the contract with Belmond, and GBRf stepped in with modern traction that doesn't require ETS - simple.

Belmond don't do locomotives of their own - DRS / Northern Belle, DBC / VSOE and British Pullman.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Are we? Who's deep pockets will be emptied by that proposed project?

It's been a promise made by the Intercity 125 group

 

[43096]

It's been a promise made by the Intercity 125 group

The name is "125 Group" and it's an aim (or objective, if you like), rather than a promise as such.

They also had the foresight to acquire components (engines and coolers) from the re-power projects to help achieve that aim.

 

[RobShipway]

I just want to add to this thread that you note under the comment Pullman Dinning withinhttps://www.gwr.com/about-us/building-on-our-heritage that is noted:

Pullman Dining

Our culinary jewel is the luxurious Pullman – Britain’s only regular high-speed dining carriage. Throughout the working week it serves breakfast, brunch and a dinner menu created by West Country restaurateur and chef Mitch Tonks.

Our Intercity Express Trains will host the Pullman on key routes; with dedicated serving dishes such as Brixham scallops on spiced lentils, Somerset pork belly with fennel and quince, and goats cheese from Glastonbury; all prepared and served at high speed.

If people are paying to have a meal such as the above on current HST trains where the Pullman service is provided, surely they would also pay for this as part of a longer distance service operated in similar fashion to the Belmond Pullman trains?

 

[Domh245]

If people are paying to have a meal such as the above on current HST trains where the Pullman service is provided, surely they would also pay for this as part of a longer distance service operated in similar fashion to the Belmond Pullman trains?

I suspect that in a lot of cases, people are paying the extra because they are already on the train or needing to travel, and so can get a meal out of it as well. I'm not convinced that enough people will go out of their way to travel on your preserved HST restaurant to make it financially viable.