Preserved HST’s?

[CosherB]

I like the idea of an HST luxury train, but would suggest that there is actually two trains. One set being a day train with say 5 first class coaches and a restaurant as has been previously suggested. The other train would be a 9 coach train with 3 First class coaches, 3 restaurant and three Mk3 sleeper cars adopted to work with HST power cars

The last train in the above list would then be able to do luxury journeys such as Penzance to Aberdeen or further north, with nighttime sleeping capabilities either while the train is in motion or while the train is stabled overnight.

Another alternative possible use for HST power cars, would also to use them as part of the Royal Train possibly as well?

You're raising the old chestnut of Mk3 LHCS being inserted between HST power cars. Not impossible, but a major cost to factor into such an exercise for a heritage operator.

Why do you need three restaurant cars with three FOs?!

As for the Royal Train, no chance. Why would DBC want to replace their 15 year old 67s with 40 year old HSTs? What a daft idea! :roll:

Let's not get driven down the "reuse at any cost" debates usually reserved for 442s. A lot of HST power cars will be scrapped in the near future, and rightly so.

 

[Deepgreen]

If you are to create a luxury dining train, then having effectively two locomotives at each end enables you to visit locations without a run round, and provides reliability in the case of failure, so the idea certainly has potential.

The other factor is going to be marketing. You need to fill up seats and they're not going to be cheap. Painting them in the Blue Pullman livery will certainly help in the creation of a luxury train brand, and provide a hell of a lot of cheap/free publicity.

One at each end.

 

[43096]

You're raising the old chestnut of Mk3 LHCS being inserted between HST power cars. Not impossible, but a major cost to factor into such an exercise for a heritage operator.



Why do you need three restaurant cars with three FOs?!



As for the Royal Train, no chance. Why would DBC want to replace their 15 year old 67s with 40 year old HSTs? What a daft idea! :roll:



Let's not get driven down the "reuse at any cost" debates usually reserved for 442s. A lot of HST power cars will be scrapped in the near future, and rightly so.

People coming up with daft ideas is a speciality of forums, so you can't be that surprised, surely?!

As for the ideas on here, what is the business case for doing it? Who is going to maintain the stock and how much does that cost? Etc etc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd go along with that - it would be nice if the remaining vehicles from the prototype could be formed in to one set where possible.

But they are both non-standard and heavily modified from original form. They are also of no use on preserved lines as individual coaches.

 

[Marklund]

But they are both non-standard and heavily modified from original form. They are also of no use on preserved lines as individual coaches.

And??

 

[RobShipway]

You're raising the old chestnut of Mk3 LHCS being inserted between HST power cars. Not impossible, but a major cost to factor into such an exercise for a heritage operator.

Why do you need three restaurant cars with three FOs?!

As for the Royal Train, no chance. Why would DBC want to replace their 15 year old 67s with 40 year old HSTs? What a daft idea! :roll:

Let's not get driven down the "reuse at any cost" debates usually reserved for 442s. A lot of HST power cars will be scrapped in the near future, and rightly so.

My ideas are not as daft as someone have made on this forum in the past and as 43096 you are going to have people coming up with daft ideas, which includes the TOC's and Network Rail.

 

[43096]

And??

As I have said before, if you are preserving vehicles, you take the ones in the best condition.

As for preserving them as individual vehicles, there'll be no heating or air-con on them if you use them in an air-brake set, and they have to be mid-train as well as they have Alliance couplers. If they are to be preserved, stuffed and mounted in a museum is about the best you'd do.

 

[Marklund]

As I have said before, if you are preserving vehicles, you take the ones in the best condition.

As for preserving them as individual vehicles, there'll be no heating or air-con on them if you use them in an air-brake set, and they have to be mid-train as well as they have Alliance couplers.

I never said anything about sticking them to a heritage railway, that's irrelevant, while your point is of course correct. As has been seen with the Grand Hibernian, anything is possible.

As for keeping the best, yes, again that's true. To a point.
If the original vehicles are only fit for the scrapheap, then so be it, I completely agree.
However, if there is only marginal difference between the original, and a later build vehicle, what are you going to keep?
What has better kudos in selling to the bums on seats that pay for the up keep?
An Original, not been formed since 1976 HST, or an HST?

If they are to be preserved, stuffed and mounted in a museum is about the best you'd do.

Better call the 125 Group, and tell them to send 41001 to Booths then.

 

[43096]

I never said anything about sticking them to a heritage railway, that's irrelevant, while your point is of course correct. As has been seen with the Grand Hibernian, anything is possible.

As for keeping the best, yes, again that's true. To a point.
If the original vehicles are only fit for the scrapheap, then so be it, I completely agree.
However, if there is only marginal difference between the original, and a later build vehicle, what are you going to keep?
What has better kudos in selling to the bums on seats that pay for the up keep?
An Original, not been formed since 1976 HST, or an HST?

As we're talking coaches, it's such a specialist niche that it will have no impact on bums on seats. With locos/power cars then, yes, I take the point.

Better call the 125 Group, and tell them to send 41001 to Booths then.

I'm not even going to bother replying to that.

 

[CosherB]

My ideas are not as daft as someone have made on this forum in the past and as 43096 you are going to have people coming up with daft ideas, which includes the TOC's and Network Rail.

I think we'll agree to differ on this one.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Is there enough demand for expensive long distance trips on HST's? And could the likes of West Coast Rail afford to buy and maintain a HST set?

 

[CosherB]

Is there enough demand for expensive long distance trips on HST's? And could the likes of West Coast Rail afford to buy and maintain a HST set?

Probably not, and definately no.

 

[RobShipway]

Is there enough demand for expensive long distance trips on HST's? And could the likes of West Coast Rail afford to buy and maintain a HST set?

Well, look at the demand on having trips either with Steam locomotives/Diesel traction hauling Mk2 coaches or Hauling the Northern Belle fleet.

Also, look at the Highland Rail tours which go over several days as an example. They seem to be very successful.

I think we'll agree to differ on this one.

Yep.

Probably not, and definately no.

Can I suggest that you please stop thinking negative, as you are beginning to make me think that you possibly work at the scrapyard at Rotherham and would be delighted to see some of our train heritage just scrapped, without a chance for future generations seeing what advances can be made. Even it is using ideas or equipment from 30 to 40 years before the 'New' trains where to be used.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Probably not, and definately no.

In other words the expectation should be that perhaps four or five power cars that are in the best condition are saved along with a hand full of Mk3s so they can be used at diesel gala's.

Assuming that one power car is saved for the NRM its not too hard to imagine individuals buying a power car and maintaining it at a preserved railway.

 

[RobShipway]

In other words the expectation should be that perhaps four or five power cars that are in the best condition are saved along with a hand full of Mk3s so they can be used at diesel gala's.

Assuming that one power car is saved for the NRM its not too hard to imagine individuals buying a power car and maintaining it at a preserved railway.

I would imagine, that there would be 2 power cars plus 3 - 5 Mk3's coaches being preserved either at the NRM and/or preserved lines where possible as the HST power cars could not be used easily with Mk1 or Mk2 that the preserved lines have within their stock and it would be pointless having a HST power car on it's own.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well, look at the demand on having trips either with Steam locomotives/Diesel traction hauling Mk2 coaches or Hauling the Northern Belle fleet.

Also, look at the Highland Rail tours which go over several days as an example. They seem to be very successful.

How much profit do those services make? In terms of demand how does diesel haulage compare to steam? It's one thing filling a train hauled by a steam loco because steam loco's always attract interest but could the same be said for a HST?

 

[RobShipway]

How much profit do those services make? In terms of demand how does diesel haulage compare to steam? It's one thing filling a train hauled by a steam loco because steam loco's always attract interest but could the same be said for a HST?

Well, a friend of mine was at Paddington station last week trying to get home to Reading when at the same time there was celebrations for the HST 40 years birthday going on where there was several platforms full of people to see the HST power car in original colours pullout of Paddington Station.

You also have the 125 group that I believes has a good many thousand of members within it.

I would say that there is just as much interest in people travelling long distance on a HST as people being interested in being on trains hauled by the Flying Scotsman or the Mallard.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I would imagine, that there would be 2 power cars plus 3 - 5 Mk3's coaches being preserved either at the NRM and/or preserved lines where possible as the HST power cars could not be used easily with Mk1 or Mk2 that the preserved lines have within their stock and it would be pointless having a HST power car on it's own.

I can't see the NRM wanting to buy more than one power car especially assuming that the prototype power car can operate with a production built one.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

In other words the expectation should be that perhaps four or five power cars that are in the best condition are saved along with a hand full of Mk3s so they can be used at diesel gala's.

Assuming that one power car is saved for the NRM its not too hard to imagine individuals buying a power car and maintaining it at a preserved railway.

a previous discussion said the 'wish list' answer is 3 /4 sets

set 1 41001 + another powercar ( possibly a surrogate DVT to preserve that interestign foot note in in the HST / high speed rail / ecml story)

set 2 'reverted' power cars (valenta / marston etc ) and 'reverted' stock (i.e. as close 'at introduction' as can be achieved )

set 3+4 ' as withdrawn' power cars one (pair if four sets) of each of the current engine types - possibly the power cars to haul aforementioned luxury dining train

 

[Harbornite]

The idea of using HST on charter/spot hire stuff isn't a new one.

Cotswold rail didn't keep their HSTs that long, and the company ended up biting the dust anyway.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I would say that there is just as much interest in people travelling long distance on a HST as people being interested in being on trains hauled by the Flying Scotsman or the Mallard.

I'm sorry but you are way wide of the mark. I along with many of my train loving friends can easily convince my wife to spend a day at a preserved railway if steam loco's are involved but she would laugh out loud at the thought of going to a diesel gala.

A HST will never hold the same attraction that a steam loco has and gender / age is irrelevant.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I'm sorry but you are way wide of the mark. I along with many of my train loving friends can easily convince my wife to spend a day at a preserved railway if steam loco's are involved but she would laugh out loud at the thought of going to a diesel gala.

A HST will never hold the same attraction that a steam loco has and gender / age is irrelevant.

what aobut the dining train suggestion ?

 

[Harbornite]

I'm sorry but you are way wide of the mark. I along with many of my train loving friends can easily convince my wife to spend a day at a preserved railway if steam loco's are involved but she would laugh out loud at the thought of going to a diesel gala.

A HST will never hold the same attraction that a steam loco has and gender / age is irrelevant.

Indeed. People can go and see HSTs in many English, Welsh and Scottish cities and diesel trains are as common as muck, but steam locos are a lot less common and have that "age of steam" romance about them that people like.

 

[RichmondCommu]

what aobut the dining train suggestion ?

Again how profitable are those? Would they make enough money to cover the cost of maintaining a HST set? How many of those trains would you need to run to make a profit? Who could afford to maintain a HST set to mainline standards i.e. 125 mph running?

 

[theblackwatch]

The idea of using HST on charter/spot hire stuff isn't a new one.

Cotswold rail didn't keep their HSTs that long, and the company ended up biting the dust anyway.

That set was leased from Porterbrook. Hertfordshire/UK Railtours have also used an EMT HST on charter work. However, whether it would be commercially viable to have a HST to just use on charters 2 or 3 times a month is something that I'm not convinced about....

 

[Malcmal]

"I wonder if a preserved HST could form a luxury train - using the First Class coaches only?"

This is not speculation - it has been recently done in Ireland. Ok the "power car" is a 201 class loco but everything else matches what is being talked about here. A rake of mark 3's refurbished and used for luxury tours.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-grand-hibernian-refurbishment-completed.html

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I would be really happy if the remaining prototype trailer coaches make it into preservation, this one was photographed at Manchester Piccadilly in early 1973 when just a few months old and I believe it's still in frontline service in a GWR set, not bad for a 44 year old vehicle! funny to think its around three years older than the last builds of mk2 stock.

Yes, it is still around, but it's on the ECML.

12000 became 42000, then 41172 and finally 42355; normally found in rake EC60.

 

[43096]

I'm sorry but you are way wide of the mark. I along with many of my train loving friends can easily convince my wife to spend a day at a preserved railway if steam loco's are involved but she would laugh out loud at the thought of going to a diesel gala.



A HST will never hold the same attraction that a steam loco has and gender / age is irrelevant.

I think you are overstating it, though. I've heard plenty of people out on day trips commenting how nice and comfortable preserved Mark 3s are, particularly on a warm day with working aircon. The benefits of aircon in summer and working electric heat in autumn and winter are obvious, as opposed to cold, draughty (in winter) and hot (in summer) Mark 1s.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes, it is still around, but it's on the ECML.

12000 became 42000, then 41172 and finally 42355; normally found in rake EC60.

Thanks for providing the detail, but after studying the shot I think it's actually 12003 depicted in my slide Peter, I will have recorded it at the time but have yet to locate my notebook to confirm.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Thanks for providing the detail, but after studying the shot I think it's actually 12003 depicted in my slide Peter, I will have recorded it at the time but have yet to locate my notebook to confirm.

I can't see the last digit in the picture.

If 12003 became 42003 then yes it's with GWR nominally listed in the 2016 Combined Volume in OC38 although it's supposedly a Laira vehicle... Hmm... I'd better query that...

 

[Ash Bridge]

I can't see the last digit in the picture.

If 12003 became 42003 then yes it's with GWR nominally listed in the 2016 Combined Volume in OC38 although it's supposedly a Laira vehicle... Hmm... I'd better query that...

One wonders if it will ever wear the new green livery?