Fracking in Lancashire

[Howardh]

1. As the UK government gives the go-ahead against the wishes of the locals and councils, it would be rather ironic if an area which voted out of the EU has to go to the courts there to try to reverse the decision!

2. On a wider issue, is it wise that out of the EU it looks like we're giving our Parliament total power over us once elected? If they aren't listening to the local people and their elected councils, seems to me that we're "losing control" rather than "taking it back"?

Note; I've no idea if fracking is bad for the environment, water supplies etc etc. My point is more about democracy (or lack of).

 

[TheKnightWho]

1. As the UK government gives the go-ahead against the wishes of the locals and councils, it would be rather ironic if an area which voted out of the EU has to go to the courts there to try to reverse the decision!

2. On a wider issue, is it wise that out of the EU it looks like we're giving our Parliament total power over us once elected? If they aren't listening to the local people and their elected councils, seems to me that we're "losing control" rather than "taking it back"?

Note; I've no idea if fracking is bad for the environment, water supplies etc etc. My point is more about democracy (or lack of).

Well they weren't lying - they were just being misleading about exactly who was taking back control. (Clue: not you or me.)

 

[Phil.]

Cue the motley army of the usual rent-a-crowd soap dodgers led by their pin-up girl EmmaThompson.

 

[ExRes]

Cue the motley army of the usual rent-a-crowd soap dodgers led by their pin-up girl EmmaThompson.

More like cue the motley army of referendum losers, that's the 16 million out of 46 million who can't live without reliving the moment time and again regardless of the subject

I wonder what the disgusted of the UK would make of it if their beloved EU said to their membership "Yes, by all means frack to your hearts content"

 

[TheKnightWho]

More like cue the motley army of referendum losers, that's the 16 million out of 46 million who can't live without reliving the moment time and again regardless of the subject

I wonder what the disgusted of the UK would make of it if their beloved EU said to their membership "Yes, by all means frack to your hearts content"

It's becoming so, so obvious that this was never about democracy. I love how you lot think this is some sort of game you won, as opposed to something that has very real effects on millions of people. As soon as democracy doesn't fit your blinkered little world-view (as here) you throw it out of the window.

If the EU said go ahead, the UK government would still be to blame for actually initiating it. However, that wasn't the case because the EU actually cares about the environment, which is why arguments in favour of fracking or over-fishing (sorry, "restoring our fishing industry") are so ridiculous: it's short-termist nonsense to benefit a minority of the very rich at the expense of everyone else and our own country's future. Pure selfishness.

 

[ExRes]

It's becoming so, so obvious that this was never about democracy. I love how you lot think this is some sort of game you won, as opposed to something that has very real effects on millions of people. As soon as democracy doesn't fit your blinkered little world-view (as here) you throw it out of the window.

If the EU said go ahead, the UK government would still be to blame for actually initiating it. However, that wasn't the case because the EU actually cares about the environment, which is why arguments in favour of fracking or over-fishing (sorry, "restoring our fishing industry") are so ridiculous: it's short-termist nonsense to benefit a minority of the very rich at the expense of everyone else and our own country's future. Pure selfishness.

Why don't you expand on "restoring our fishing industry", are you going to claim that by restoring British territorial waters to British fishermen that the catch is going to be different to what it currently is?

As for democracy, do you know the meaning of the word? democracy is exactly what gave the UK the referendum result that was achieved, so why would it not "fit my blinkered little world-view"?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Why don't you expand on "restoring our fishing industry", are you going to claim that by restoring British territorial waters to British fishermen that the catch is going to be different to what it currently is?

As for democracy, do you know the meaning of the word? democracy is exactly what gave the UK the referendum result that was achieved, so why would it not "fit my blinkered little world-view"?

Well given the entire issue is the quotas, which were put in place to stop overfishing, then yes, I really do think it's short-sighted and stupid.

And given I spent several years studying democracy as part of a degree, I am somewhat familiar with the term. And it's a hell of a lot more complicated than "we won the referendum so shut up" - in fact, that's a very anti-democratic sentiment from you. I also don't see you kicking up a fuss about local councils being overruled - I thought that was exactly the kind of thing Brexiters cared about: localism over centralisation!

Unless you mean to say that democracy's only valuable when it gives you what you want..?

 

[chorleyjeff]

Well given the entire issue is the quotas, which were put in place to stop overfishing, then yes, I really do think it's short-sighted and stupid.

Genuine question. Did many UK fishermen sell their fishing quotas to fishermen from other EU countries leading to the big reduction in the U.K. fishing industry ?

 

[Howardh]

It's approx 16 min walk via Scarborough Bridge.

As for which exit to use, I'd say the one near platform 4.

(That said, if you arrive into platforms 10/11 and happen to be near the footbridge then it may be quicker to go out near the NRM and through the subway.... but probably not)

Would the local rail be used to transport machinery? I would have thought not, but a nice little earner for the railways if it did. Be ironic if, after losing all the rail that carried coal, the power industry went back to them for this "new" source!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Genuine question. Did many UK fishermen sell their fishing quotas to fishermen from other EU countries leading to the big reduction in the U.K. fishing industry ?

I'm sure I read somewhere that Spanish and Dutch crew were sailing British ships and landing the stock in Holland and Spain and "using" our quotas. But can't elaborate - need someone in the know to confirm/deny.

 

[Trog]

As soon as democracy doesn't fit your blinkered little world-view (as here) you throw it out of the window.

Why is the local councils opinion more democratic than that of the national government?

Surely if the councils opinion is more important because they are elected just by the voters of the affected area, the Parish Council could then over ride them as they are elected by the voters of the immediate area, and be trumped themselves by the farmer who is the only owner of that field.

Surely local issues should be decided at local level except where the advantage to the nation as a whole, makes a local negative a positive nationally. In which case we should go ahead but with some form of compensation for the affected locality, so that they get both the national benefit and a little something for putting up with the negative aspects.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Why is the local councils opinion more democratic than that of the national government?

Surely if the councils opinion is more important because they are elected just by the voters of the affected area, the Parish Council could then over ride them as they are elected by the voters of the immediate area, and be trumped themselves by the farmer who is the only owner of that field.

Surely local issues should be decided at local level except where the advantage to the nation as a whole, makes a local negative a positive nationally. In which case we should go ahead but with some form of compensation for the affected locality, so that they get both the national benefit and a little something for putting up with the negative aspects.

Why is it more important? Because they are the representatives for the local area and all tiers of local government from the parish, district and county councils were in agreement.

The government has preached localism and then overruled a local decision.

I understand the national issues. I work in the very industry that would benefit the most from a secure supply of gas in the U.K. It is a good idea to have a home grown source of gas Rather than depending on Norwegian or Russian gas via pipeline and other sources via LNG.

However the government has made an arbitrary decision which now undermines the localism agenda that has been discussed and promoted for the past 6 years.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Why is it more important? Because they are the representatives for the local area and all tiers of local government from the parish, district and county councils were in agreement.

The government has preached localism and then overruled a local decision.

I understand the national issues. I work in the very industry that would benefit the most from a secure supply of gas in the U.K. It is a good idea to have a home grown source of gas Rather than depending on Norwegian or Russian gas via pipeline and other sources via LNG.

However the government has made an arbitrary decision which now undermines the localism agenda that has been discussed and promoted for the past 6 years.

This is exactly the issue.

I have no issue with the government making national decisions that are to the benefit of the whole country in the face of NIMBYs. I have a large issue with a government that preaches localism both with regards to itself versus the EU and also regional devolution, but then overrules a local council that has overwhelming local support when other options are indeed available. I would argue that dependency on Norwegian gas isn't a massive issue, but more importantly the money going into fracking could be going into renewable energy.

On good days we can generate as much as 20% of our energy from wind, and on average it hovers around 10%. It's not some fanciful pipedream - bring on the mega North Sea windfarms already! Not to mention that we should be renewing already-existing nuclear plants by providing them with new reactors. There's no need to spread the desolation around people beyond where it already exists.

 

[Bletchleyite]

more importantly the money going into fracking could be going into renewable energy

I agree - that and nuclear. Then electrify the rail system (the lot of it), push electric cars, build tram systems and electric bus systems etc - then we can seriously reduce our dependency on oil so it's only really important for manufacturing as a raw material.

The geopolitical benefits would be massive.

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm not going into the pros and cons of fracking itself which experts say is perfectly safe. What I'm pleased with is that somebody has stood up to the anti-progress collection of Greens, Save the Planet and other enviromentalists who seem to find some objection to any new project. It has been said that the Council was overruled because, although they were supposed to have been representing local feeling, they were actually letting themselves being influenced by the groups and NIMBYS instead of standing up to them. Goodness knows how we would have managed if all these pressure groups had been active during the War years.

 

[Howardh]

I'm not going into the pros and cons of fracking itself which experts say is perfectly safe. What I'm pleased with is that somebody has stood up to the anti-progress collection of Greens, Save the Planet and other enviromentalists who seem to find some objection to any new project. It has been said that the Council was overruled because, although they were supposed to have been representing local feeling, they were actually letting themselves being influenced by the groups and NIMBYS instead of standing up to them. Goodness knows how we would have managed if all these pressure groups had been active during the War years.

Without the greens and other lobby groups, we might not have a planet to save!

But regarding councils being "influenced by groups" - the locals put them in power by democratic vote and I'm fairly sure each councillor would have made their views on fracking in Lancashire very well known prior to local elections.

 

[HSTEd]

Wind turbines are effectively worthless as reliable electricity generation - they can only function when propped up by dispatchable generation.
What happens when the wind simply doesn't blow for two weeks - as has already happened once since this madness [of subsidising them] began.

The only alternative to fracked gas is maass production of nuclear reactors - but without public money at public debt interest rates it is totally uneconomic, and the state must never intervene in such things any more under modern 'liberal' economics.
So we are stuck, 60 ESBWR or 140 EC6 or some combination of the two would solve this problem in a few years for a relatively small total fraction of GDP, but that won't happen.

 

[Trog]

I have a large issue with a government that preaches localism both with regards to itself versus the EU and also regional devolution, but then overrules a local council that has overwhelming local support when other options are indeed available.

However much the government believes in localism there are going to have to be exceptions, only religions can afford to be absolute about things and that is because they are not about or responsible for the real world. It would only be wrong if the government continually over ruled councils while saying they should not, exceptions are exceptional.

 

[NSEFAN]

Wind turbines are effectively worthless as reliable electricity generation - they can only function when propped up by dispatchable generation.
What happens when the wind simply doesn't blow for two weeks - as has already happened once since this madness [of subsidising them] began.

To be fair, off-shore wind is a lot more reliable than on-shore, and we have plenty of coastline in the UK.

 

[TheEdge]

To be fair, off-shore wind is a lot more reliable than on-shore, and we have plenty of coastline in the UK.

But its still not reliable. A wind farm will never be able to be used as base supply that nuclear, coal and hydroelectric can. When something causes a big strain on the grid (thousands of kettles going on after the World Cup final for example) the national grid will rapidly spool up a turbine somewhere to cover that sudden spike and spool it down again when its over, that is something that is impossible for most renewable sources, except the incredibly destructive hydroelectric projects.

You cannot base an electric grid on something uncontrollable. A solar farm, a wind farm or tidal barrage will only work to their full capacity when their uncontrollable energy sources are available unlike a nuclear, oil or coal plant where a bloke can flick a switch as and when is needed to generate more power.

 

[HSTEd]

To be fair, off-shore wind is a lot more reliable than on-shore, and we have plenty of coastline in the UK.

Off-shore wind has all sorts of problems caused by horrific maintenance costs as a result of all maintenance being done at sea from ships and helicopters winching men up and down and such. Its a far cry from the likes of a nuclear power station where maintenance is done inside in a climate controlled building - or even a tidal range barrage where the turbine casings can be pumped dry and work done in shirt sleeves, no matter the weather prevailing outside.


Tidal RAnge has the lowest power cost due to its enormous lifespan that amortises the capital to nothing with the current real-terms negative interest rates. Nuclear comes in a close second and offshore wind is nowhere.

You cannot base an electric grid on something uncontrollable. A solar farm, a wind farm or tidal barrage will only work to their full capacity when their uncontrollable energy sources are available unlike a nuclear, oil or coal plant where a bloke can flick a switch as and when is needed to generate more power.

Tidal barrages are an exception as they are essentially perfectly predictable centuries in advance.
They are less problematic in this regard since I know precisely when every kilowatt hour they will ever produce will be produced to within a few minutes, so spikes in generation can easily be covered with storage that can be cycling twice or more every day.

And projects can be engineered so they offset each other partially if required.
YOu never get a two week lull with tidal generation - with a dual-mode low head barrage on the Severn you are pumping out watts on a ~6 hour cycle.

 

[Howardh]

In the 70's at school - around the oil crisis time - it was suggested that well before now almost every suitable small dwelling would be producing it's own power; solar panels and small wind turbines - and storing in batteries and topped up by the national grid.

Where are we? A conspiracist might think it's not in the Big 6's interests (er, profits, I mean) for the country to go that way?

 

[Lankyline]

A few points, first a "democratic" process already exists and has been used Quadrilla to appeal the decision made by Lancs county council, which is their right, so much for the protesters moaning about lack of democracy
Second and this is just a conspiracy theory, but did get mentioned on local radio, at the time of the decision being taken by LCC local elections were just around the corner, makes you wonder whose interest LCC were considering.

 

[backontrack]

Screw fracking, what we need renewables. We're screwing this planet over - let's ditch the fossil fuels and not drill in our National Parks and AoNBS. Let's invest in clean energy - solar, wind, wave, hydroelectric power - instead of fracking.

It's approx 16 min walk via Scarborough Bridge.

As for which exit to use, I'd say the one near platform 4.

(That said, if you arrive into platforms 10/11 and happen to be near the footbridge then it may be quicker to go out near the NRM and through the subway.... but probably not)

No...you lost me again.

 

[TheEdge]

Let's invest in clean energy - solar, wind, wave, hydroelectric power - instead of fracking.

Solar - unreliable
Wind - unreliable
Tidal - predictable and mostly reliable but a NIMBY minefield.
Hydroelectric - pretty sure flooding some more Welsh towns and villages will be politically difficult.

The answer relies in a mix of renewables and the peaceful atom.

 

[HSTEd]

There turns out to be relatively little hydro capacity left to develop in Britain - you will get a couple of gigawatts of low capacity factor peaking generation at best. Even without NIMBYs getting in the way.
One, not totally absurd option, would be to build a transatlantic HVDC cable using recent advances in polymer cable technology and UHVDC converters making 1100kV a realistic connection voltage. It is only 3,000km or so to Churchill Falls after all. Its probably still more economic than offshore wind ever will be.
Then you can use North Canadian Hydro

 

[Trog]

Of the renewables tidal is obviously the most useful being predictable and reliable, also as high tide is at different times on different parts of the coast if three or four stations were built you could perhaps site them so that their most efficient times of output were staggered round the clock. But no doubt were you to plan to build one you would be knee deep in the sort of green soap dodgers and NIMBY's who will not be happy until people are back living in caves in minutes.

 

[radamfi]

Solar - unreliable

You could build panels in areas where sunshine is virtually guaranteed.

According to

http://www.ez2c.de/ml/solar_land_area/

you can cover a small percentage of the Saraha to power the whole of Europe. We need to get away from insisting on power coming from your own nation states (aka "energy security"). It's not particularly practical for densely populated countries like the UK. The best power sources exist in places where few people live. Similarly we could harness the geothermal energy from Iceland, another sparsely populated place.

 

[backontrack]

OK, maybe hydroelectricity isn't practical - but the others sure are.

 

[Howardh]

You could build panels in areas where sunshine is virtually guaranteed.

According to

http://www.ez2c.de/ml/solar_land_area/

you can cover a small percentage of the Saraha to power the whole of Europe. .

Sounds good, put in practice wouldn't a lot of electricity be "lost" (dunno the correct term ) in transit?

Perhaps a more plausible idea would be one like the "space lift" which could happen next century - solar panels in space linked to the ground by cable, so instead of 1600 miles, it's 60, and send the power down that.
OK OK, thousands of insurmountable problems today (wind on the cable at lower levels, air traffic, getting the panels into space, maintaining them etc etc) but if we can assume recources on the earth are finite, the who knows what the next 50 years can bring?
Also solar panels up there could block some of the sunlight thus cooling the earth down a touch?
Beam me down, Spotty.

 

[JamesT]

Until we get a decent storage mechanism to smooth out the inconsistencies in renewable power production, you need some sort of conventional plant that can be turned on or up at short notice. Currently that means coal, gas, or diesel. Of those, gas is the cleanest.
So, we need gas. Now the choice is between propping up Putin by buying from Russia, or producing it ourselves through Fracking which provides British jobs.