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Fracking in Lancashire

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radamfi

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Sounds good, put in practice wouldn't a lot of electricity be "lost" (dunno the correct term :oops:) in transit

We are already building an underwater cable between Norway and the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Link

There is already an underwater cable between Norway and the Netherlands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NorNed

Those aren't short distances so given the high cost of doing it underwater it must be both economically and technically feasible without too losing too much electricity.
 
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SWTCommuter

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Perhaps a more plausible idea would be one like the "space lift" which could happen next century - solar panels in space linked to the ground by cable, so instead of 1600 miles, it's 60, and send the power down that.
OK OK, thousands of insurmountable problems today (wind on the cable at lower levels, air traffic, getting the panels into space, maintaining them etc etc) but if we can assume recources on the earth are finite, the who knows what the next 50 years can bring?

Presumably that would require a geostationary orbit so the cables would need to be 22,236 miles long.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geostationary_orbit
 

Robinson

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Surely local issues should be decided at local level except where the advantage to the nation as a whole, makes a local negative a positive nationally.

Fracking is not a national benefit at all. It is just about the most inefficient and environmentally destructive form of energy there is. If it was so wonderfully efficient why did it need such a ludicrous tax break? I'll tell you the answer - because fracking is only profitable when energy prices are sky-high.
 

HSTEd

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you can cover a small percentage of the Saraha to power the whole of Europe. We need to get away from insisting on power coming from your own nation states (aka "energy security"). It's not particularly practical for densely populated countries like the UK. The best power sources exist in places where few people live. Similarly we could harness the geothermal energy from Iceland, another sparsely populated place.

And what happens when some African strongman or government seizes the power stations in mid-winter and threatens to blow up the power converters or drop the power lines unless we agree to pay him an enormous sum of money?

Sahara power systems would still require significant storage systems [although spreading the panels out east-west helps a bit] and would require tens of thousands of permanently deployed troops to stop people crushing what would be the enormously extended and fragile jugular of Europe. Turning North Africa into an armed camp is unlikely to go down well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Fracking is not a national benefit at all. It is just about the most inefficient and environmentally destructive form of energy there is. If it was so wonderfully efficient why did it need such a ludicrous tax break? I'll tell you the answer - because fracking is only profitable when energy prices are sky-high.

*cough* *cough* Every other power system available in this glorious 'free market'.
 

Trog

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Fracking is not a national benefit at all. It is just about the most inefficient and environmentally destructive form of energy there is.

Compared to hydro-electric that involves drowning whole valleys.
Compared to coal which emits enough sulphur when burnt to cause acid rain.
Compared to wind that is an eyesore and only works intermittently.
Nuclear can be good though I believe they have a really nice wilderness reserve around the old Chernobyl power station.

The fracking happens thousands of feet underground, the gas when burnt is going to do no more harm than gas from aboard and you save the fuel burnt to get it here.
 

TheEdge

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Nuclear can be good though I believe they have a really nice wilderness reserve around the old Chernobyl power station.

And there we are, the energy version of Godwins law. Claiming Chernobyl is any reflection on the safety of nuclear power is like claiming 9/11 is a reflection on the safety of B767s...
 

TheKnightWho

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Compared to hydro-electric that involves drowning whole valleys.
Compared to coal which emits enough sulphur when burnt to cause acid rain.
Compared to wind that is an eyesore and only works intermittently.
Nuclear can be good though I believe they have a really nice wilderness reserve around the old Chernobyl power station.

The fracking happens thousands of feet underground, the gas when burnt is going to do no more harm than gas from aboard and you save the fuel burnt to get it here.

So a Severn barrage would involve flooding whole valleys..?

Windfarms are only eyesores in the opinion of some because we're not used to them. These days most people are, and only upper middle-class NIMBYs moan about them. That's to say nothing about the massive windfarms built and being planned to be put in the middle of the North Sea, where they're more reliable, much larger and out of sight. Why are we not putting more money into that?

As for nuclear, it would help if you understood the first thing about what actually caused Chernobyl. Clue: it's impossible with modern reactor designs and protocols.
 
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Harbornite

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So a Severn barrage would involve flooding whole valleys..?

Windfarms are only eyesores in the opinion of some because we're not used to them. These days most people are, and only upper middle-class NIMBYs moan about them. That's to say nothing about the massive windfarms built and being planned to be put in the middle of the North Sea, where they're more reliable, much larger and out of sight. Why are we not putting more money into that?

As for nuclear, it would help if you understood the first thing about what actually caused Chernobyl. Clue: it's impossible with modern reactor designs and protocols.


Indeed. Having a mix of energy sources can only be a good thing and this is why there's some justification for fracking.
 

ninja-lewis

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Fracking is not a national benefit at all. It is just about the most inefficient and environmentally destructive form of energy there is. If it was so wonderfully efficient why did it need such a ludicrous tax break? I'll tell you the answer - because fracking is only profitable when energy prices are sky-high.
What ludicrous tax break?

Natural gas isn't just an energy source; it is an important petrochemical feedstock. How do you propose to produce the many products that rely on ethane without natural gas?

So a Severn barrage would involve flooding whole valleys..?

Windfarms are only eyesores in the opinion of some because we're not used to them. These days most people are, and only upper middle-class NIMBYs moan about them. That's to say nothing about the massive windfarms built and being planned to be put in the middle of the North Sea, where they're more reliable, much larger and out of sight. Why are we not putting more money into that?
The RSPB, amongst other environmental groups, have concerns about the impact of a barrage on wetlands.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/details.aspx?id=353688

Offshore wind isn't harmless either

http://www.rspb.org.uk/news/422275-..._source=rss&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=News
 

Trog

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So a Severn barrage would involve flooding whole valleys..?

Windfarms are only eyesores in the opinion of some because we're not used to them. These days most people are, and only upper middle-class NIMBYs moan about them. That's to say nothing about the massive windfarms built and being planned to be put in the middle of the North Sea, where they're more reliable, much larger and out of sight. Why are we not putting more money into that?

As for nuclear, it would help if you understood the first thing about what actually caused Chernobyl. Clue: it's impossible with modern reactor designs and protocols.

Lets see Severn Barrage I think that comes under tidal which I did not mention as that strikes me as one of the better renewables.

Why are we not putting more money into North Sea wind farms, I wonder if it is because construction and maintenance by helicopter and ship costs a fortune. There was quite a bit of moaning about our local wind turbine on line, going by the spelling I don't think most of those complaining were upper middle class. But even if they were they are entitled to an opinion, to be weighed democratically and by any effect on the nation as a whole.

Chenobyl I thought they were running tests on the reactor with most of the safety systems switched off, and suffered a runaway reaction made worse by a side effect of the emergency shutdown procedure. Which resulted in an explosion that blew the top off the reactor. Not sure what benefit modern reactor protocols would have compared to the older ones they were using at Chenobyl. Are they now written in some sort of special ink so that they work even if you ignore them, and bugger about with an unstable reactor with the safety systems switched off?

You could also mention Three Mile Island, Windscale, and Fukushima on the down side of the nuclear industry, although I believe burning coal instead of using nuclear power to generate electricity. Actually releases more radioactivity in the long run, the leakage just tends to be less exciting.
 

Lankyline

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What is laughable is that Lancs county council object to fracking yet do nothing about using renewable energy sources themselves i.e. Solar panels on their own properties. Nearest they're going to get is putting in low energy bulbs and turning lights off !
Anyone know of a council either district or county that actually uses renewable energy sources ?
 

TheEdge

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Chenobyl I thought they were running tests on the reactor with most of the safety systems switched off, and suffered a runaway reaction made worse by a side effect of the emergency shutdown procedure. Which resulted in an explosion that blew the top off the reactor. Not sure what benefit modern reactor protocols would have compared to the older ones they were using at Chenobyl. Are they now written in some sort of special ink so that they work even if you ignore them, and bugger about with an unstable reactor with the safety systems switched off?

You could also mention Three Mile Island, Windscale, and Fukushima on the down side of the nuclear industry, although I believe burning coal instead of using nuclear power to generate electricity. Actually releases more radioactivity in the long run, the leakage just tends to be less exciting.

Right, I'll bite. Reactor 4 was being run down to test something or other, on the morning of the test a full test team was present however there was a failure of a coal power station near Kiev, as such the grid controllers requested Reactor 4 was left at full power to cover the gap, it was. The day shift and test crew went home, the night team came on expecting to just babysit a reactor effectively at idle, instead for various reasons they performed the tests unprepared.

In order to do this all of control rods, including rods normally locked in place were removed, the reactor started to run out of control and was in a totally unsafe configuration and began to run out of control, as such the operators/computer (unknown which) began a SCRAM, an emergency shut down. Due to a design flaw of the RBMK reactors used in the USSR at the time as control rods entered the reactor they actually sped up the reaction for a short while before they would begin to slow it down. Due to another flaw in the design at the high temperatures steam voids could form, they did. These voids and high pressure steam caused the fuel and control rods to buckle which had the effect of leaving the rods actually raising the output and caused a massive power spike, two steam explosions within the reactor followed. Unlike modern and Western reactors the RMBK design did not contain the core within a pressure vessel, it just exists in a giant cylinder with a 2000t cap on it held on with not much more than gravity and bolts. The steam explosions threw that cap off and with it much of the reactor core.

Fast forward to today. Modern reactors all exist within a sealed pressure vessel, which is why radiation release from Three Mile Island and Fukushima were so much less than Chernobyl and why Windscale released so much more than the severity of the incident, non contained reactos are not a thing anymore. It is no longer possible to just withdraw all the control rods you wish to run a test to please your superiors. The RBMK design is so dangerous that as part of Lithuania's membership of the EU it was to close its remaining RBMK reactors and the EU would help with replacing them.
 

Trog

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Screw fracking, what we need renewables. We're screwing this planet over - let's ditch the fossil fuels and not drill in our National Parks and AoNBS. Let's invest in clean energy - solar, wind, wave, hydroelectric power - instead of fracking.

If we are in pointless picky mode it is AONBs by the way, capital O for outstanding small s for more than one of them.
 

Phil.

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Fracking is not a national benefit at all. It is just about the most inefficient and environmentally destructive form of energy there is. If it was so wonderfully efficient why did it need such a ludicrous tax break? I'll tell you the answer - because fracking is only profitable when energy prices are sky-high.

Sorry old mate but you're talking rubbish. If you want to see the country run out of energy that's fine but I'd like my children to be able to have heating through the winter that's not dependant on the wind blowing or the sun shining.
 

Altfish

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Sorry old mate but you're talking rubbish. If you want to see the country run out of energy that's fine but I'd like my children to be able to have heating through the winter that's not dependant on the wind blowing or the sun shining.

But, it is terribly inefficient, something like 80% of the available gas is lost.
 

Phil.

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But, it is terribly inefficient, something like 80% of the available gas is lost.

Inefficient it may be but it's reliable and that's the important bit. If we left power production in the hands of the greens and other dreamers we'd soon be (literally) back in the dark ages.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So a Severn barrage would involve flooding whole valleys..?

Windfarms are only eyesores in the opinion of some because we're not used to them. These days most people are, and only upper middle-class NIMBYs moan about them. That's to say nothing about the massive windfarms built and being planned to be put in the middle of the North Sea, where they're more reliable, much larger and out of sight. Why are we not putting more money into that?

As for nuclear, it would help if you understood the first thing about what actually caused Chernobyl. Clue: it's impossible with modern reactor designs and protocols.

I dislike windmills and I'm certainly not an upper middle class NIMBY. I drive by the ones off the A393 and have yet to see them turn a blade. Meanwhile the landowner is raking in £thousands for having them there.
 

HSTEd

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But, it is terribly inefficient, something like 80% of the available gas is lost.

So 20% is recovered [even if that stat is accurate and it sounds rather dodgy]. Which is a lot more of the gas than you would have had if you had done nothing.
 

furnessvale

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But, it is terribly inefficient, something like 80% of the available gas is lost.

Genuine question. How does that compare with the percentage recovered in the exploitation of other fossil fuels by other methods?
 

Bletchleyite

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Sorry old mate but you're talking rubbish. If you want to see the country run out of energy that's fine but I'd like my children to be able to have heating through the winter that's not dependant on the wind blowing or the sun shining.

To me nuclear is the best way to provide assured, long-term background energy of that kind.
 

TheKnightWho

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I dislike windmills and I'm certainly not an upper middle class NIMBY. I drive by the ones off the A393 and have yet to see them turn a blade. Meanwhile the landowner is raking in £thousands for having them there.

I'll let the stats speak for themselves - not your occasional views of the odd windmill.
 

cjmillsnun

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As for nuclear, it would help if you understood the first thing about what actually caused Chernobyl. Clue: it's impossible with modern reactor designs and protocols.

Chernobyl was a steam explosion caused by operator error and bad reactor design.

I agree that reactor design is better. However that does not mean that a significant nuclear accident impossible. There is always potential for a beyond design factor accident or incident. This could be caused by natural disasters (Fukushima) or by human error.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Tenuous at best, the original points raised in the thread relate to querying the legality and democratic process

Legally it's fine. The absolute planning authority is central government if it is deemed in the national interest. Democratically it's a farce. It flies in the face of localism and May's speech on becoming PM
 

HSTEd

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Chernobyl was a steam explosion caused by operator error and bad reactor design.

I agree that reactor design is better. However that does not mean that a significant nuclear accident impossible. There is always potential for a beyond design factor accident or incident. This could be caused by natural disasters (Fukushima) or by human error.

You won't get an accident where firefighters outside the building are tripping up on bits of reactor core graphite though.
Even worst case in a more modern reactor will keep the vast majority of the fission products, and the rest of the core, inside the building.

Also note that a positive void coefficient does not necessarily make a reactor unsafe by itself - see CANDUs for example.
 

Tetchytyke

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Legally it's fine. The absolute planning authority is central government if it is deemed in the national interest. Democratically it's a farce. It flies in the face of localism and May's speech on becoming PM

And we've seen the same trampling over local people's views with the absolute omnishambles that has been the new nuclear power station contracts too.

The main problem with nuclear power remains dealing with the waste. The first nuclear power plants came online in the UK 60 years ago and we're still no closer to dealing with the waste from these plants- dumping it all at Sellafield is not exactly a solution.

And it's the same issue with fracking. In fact we're going through the same stages as we did with nuclear: "ah it'll be safe" then "oh it's within safe parameters" and then "oh, we'll just bury evidence to the contrary".
 

cjmillsnun

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And we've seen the same trampling over local people's views with the absolute omnishambles that has been the new nuclear power station contracts too.

The main problem with nuclear power remains dealing with the waste. The first nuclear power plants came online in the UK 60 years ago and we're still no closer to dealing with the waste from these plants- dumping it all at Sellafield is not exactly a solution.

And it's the same issue with fracking. In fact we're going through the same stages as we did with nuclear: "ah it'll be safe" then "oh it's within safe parameters" and then "oh, we'll just bury evidence to the contrary".

I don't disagree.
 

HSTEd

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The main problem with nuclear power remains dealing with the waste. The first nuclear power plants came online in the UK 60 years ago and we're still no closer to dealing with the waste from these plants- dumping it all at Sellafield is not exactly a solution.

And it's the same issue with fracking. In fact we're going through the same stages as we did with nuclear: "ah it'll be safe" then "oh it's within safe parameters" and then "oh, we'll just bury evidence to the contrary".

Actually it turns out that dumping it at all at Sellafield actually is a solution.
The projections that show that nuclear fuel is horribly dangerous for millenia are based on a rather strange premise - that you will simply grind up the fuel and eat it. Which will actually be deadly forever because uranium is poisonous, like all other heavy elements.

Surface dose from a fuel element actually drops to levels that would be in the background after only a couple of hundred years.
Currently the cheapest method of disposing of this fuel is to dry store it for a couple of centuries and then either reprocess the now only mildly radioactive fuel or to bury it at that stage, where you can pack it in far more tightly now that it is not really producing large amounts of heat.

But "surface store for 300 years" doesn't sound like a great solution because it doesn't fall into the "We must do something, this is something, therefore we must do this" fallacy and is thus not beloved of the press or politicians.
 
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