Is a Hard or Soft Brexit better for the railways?

[thenorthern]

One thing I have heard is with cars ones built on the continent will be subject to new regulations some of which are not popular such as emissions but we won't have any say in the new regulations.

I could see this happening for trains as well.

 

[najaB]

One thing I have heard is with cars ones built on the continent will be subject to new regulations some of which are not popular such as emissions but we won't have any say in the new regulations.

Our car manufacturers will need to comply with those regulations if we want to continue to sell into Europe. Same goes for our trains.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Doubt it although given that much of the coal in this country comes from Poland it will mean a gap of 6 years between leaving the EU and the last coal fired power station closing.

Six years??? I'd be surprised if its any more than three years after leaving the EU.

 

[Howardh]

'Free movement' means EU nationals can work in Ireland. They won't be able to work in the UK; at least not by default (there will still be ways to gain lawful employment) but EU nationals will still be able to come to the UK without a visa. The fly in the ointment will be whether the UK will require a passport stamp and if EU nationals will face time limits (ie 90 or 180 day maximum stay). If there are no restrictions, then the passport stamp would not be necessary as merely the passport in itself would be enough documentation to show the holder is legally in the UK. If there are restrictions on length of stay then a stamp will be needed. Someone from the EU could theoretically fly into Dublin and go up the N1 and enter the UK without a stamp and therefore illegally. There are probably a few approaches one could take to this. One approach could be to insist EU nationals get an entry stamp in advance if they intend to cross the border, probably at entry into Ireland. This would require co-operation between the border/immigration departments of both countries, although this already exists as a consequence of the CTA.

I really don't see a 'hard border' being an immediate consequence of Brexit. Further into the future, like I said, may be different and will depend on future events, not necessarily foreseen.

There's one place in Canada, I'll look it up on Google Earth some day, which a tiny part is in the USA. That part in the USA can only be reached by boat or on land from Canada. There is a town there too. To get to that town from Canada is like Ireland/UK, there simply is no border. All there is - a sign pointing to a telephone box stating "Please ring US Customs and Immigration if you go beyond this point"!
Er, could this be the "Irish Solution"??!

 

[thenorthern]

Our car manufacturers will need to comply with those regulations if we want to continue to sell into Europe. Same goes for our trains.

Also cars built in Europe for the United Kingdom which is more than half the top 10 best selling ones will be built to standards we can't set. I would think as well the same with trains built for the United Kingdom.

Realistically though this will be the same if its a hard or a soft brexit.

 

[najaB]

Realistically though this will be the same if its a hard or a soft brexit.

In a 'super-soft' Brexit (my term) we'd at least still have a seat at the table where the standards are set.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's one place in Canada, I'll look it up on Google Earth some day, which a tiny part is in the USA. That part in the USA can only be reached by boat or on land from Canada. There is a town there too. To get to that town from Canada is like Ireland/UK, there simply is no border. All there is - a sign pointing to a telephone box stating "Please ring US Customs and Immigration if you go beyond this point"!
Er, could this be the "Irish Solution"??!

That's how it is mostly done in Switzerland - even lighter, in fact - you simply have to make a declaration if you have goods to declare. If not, carry on.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To return back to the subject of the thread title, the RMT were one of the few trades unions in favour of Brexit when the referendum was being held and since the title of this thread concerns how railways can be affected by different measures of Brexit, has the RMT made any statements since the result of the referendum that could be of use to ascertaining their view on the matter in discussion on this thread?

 

[WatcherZero]

The RMT supported Brexit because they thought that if we left we could privatise railways and they also thought we would be able to implement more protectionist policies on merchant trade vessels (restrict foreign crews) pushing up workers wages.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/658932/Rail-union-RMT-urges-member-vote-leave-european-union

 

[najaB]

The RMT supported Brexit because they thought that if we left we could privatise railways...

Nationalise, surely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nationalise, surely?

In any case we can nationalise the railways within the EU, and indeed we did nationalise Network Rail while a member of the EU. It just requires separate accounting to allow for Open Access.

 

[najaB]

In any case we can nationalise the railways within the EU, and indeed we did nationalise Network Rail while a member of the EU. It just requires separate accounting to allow for Open Access.

I know that, I just wanted to make sure I had the RMT's lie story straight.

 

[thenorthern]

Nationalise, surely?

Yep that will be it Bob Crow was a self described "Socialist/Communist" and the EU is quite anti public ownership.

You have got to remember until the Maastricht Treaty most of the opposition to the European Union came from the left such as the main NO campaigner in the 1975 Referendum was Tony Benn. Back then the most Pro-EEC parts of the country were England then Wales ironically the countries that voted out this time.

 

[najaB]

Yep that will be it Bob Crow was a self described "Socialist/Communist" and the EU is quite anti public ownership.

The EU is anti-monopoly. It just happens that many monopolies historically have been state-owned. I don't think they have any issue with state-owned companies competing with the private sector*.

*Edit: As long as it's on purely commercial terms.

 

[thenorthern]

With the way things are going with Pound Sterling there won't be any new trains as we won't be able to afford them.

 

[stanley T]

It depends if the current post Brexit bounce to the economy (fuelled by a weak pound) is not sustained. As PM May seems obsessed with immigration, which precludes single market access and leads to "hard Brexit", then the resulting economic damage would indeed be bad for the railways, lower investment especially.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah its scary, the new home secretary is talking of bringing back the 'back to the tens of thousands' immigration targets and ending student visas except for a select few universities.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the thread title remit of how railways could be affected by varying modes of Brexit seems to have run its course, should the forum staff rename the title of the thread to that of a wider remit?

 

[najaB]

...and ending student visas except for a select few universities.

Way to go killing off one of our most successful industries, not to mention cutting off our supply of the best and brightest that the world has to offer.

 

[thenorthern]

Has Chris Graying spoken at the conference yet?

I know he was pro-leave but I haven't heard any of his policy yet for any post Brexit transport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Way to go killing off one of our most successful industries, not to mention cutting off our supply of the best and brightest that the world has to offer.

How do you equate what you say above with the thread title of how differing forms of Brexit affect the railways?

 

[najaB]

How do you equate what you say above with the thread title of how differing forms of Brexit affect the railways?

It was a response to the quoted post. However, the potential impact on the railway is two-fold: first the loss of revenue from foreign students using the railway, and secondly the loss of potential engineers and innovators who could contribute to future development of the railway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was a response to the quoted post. However, the potential impact on the railway is two-fold: first the loss of revenue from foreign students using the railway, and secondly the loss of potential engineers and innovators who could contribute to future development of the railway.

Are the railways not seen as an attractive industry for young British students in which to build their career? Do we have to rely on those from abroad to fill such career posts. If so, the railway industry has a lot to answer for, unfortunately.

 

[najaB]

Are the railways not seen as an attractive industry for young British students in which to build their career? Do we have to rely on those from abroad to fill such career posts. If so, the railway industry has a lot to answer for, unfortunately.

There is a general shortage of young talent in STEM (science, technology, engineering, and mathematics) professions.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is a general shortage of young talent in STEM (science, technology, engineering, and mathematics) professions.

Which rather beggars the question as to why the British education system is not producing the requisite number of male and female graduates to enter into those professions. Is it not the case that female students are now coming forth more than ever before, hopefully as a result of sexist barriers into what once was seen as a male preserve have been broken down.

 

[najaB]

Which rather beggars the question as to why the British education system is not producing the requisite number of male and female graduates to enter into those professions.

There are a number of reasons posited: the instant gratification/TOWIE culture, the perception that engineering jobs are hard or dirty, science not being 'cool' enough have all been suggested. This report is from 2012 but the problem is still prevalent:

A new report has laid out the scale of the UK’s engineering skills shortage and called for government industrial strategy to focus on training.

The study, commissioned by the Royal Academy of Engineering, found that British industry will need 100,000 new graduates in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) subjects every year until 2020 just to maintain current employment numbers.

However, the UK currently produces only 90,000 STEM graduates a year — including international students who cannot presently obtain work visas — and a quarter of engineering students choose jobs in other sectors.

In total, industry will need 830,000 new science, engineering and technology (SET) professionals and 450,000 SET technicians between now and 2020.

Link to article

 

[bangor-toad]

Which rather beggars the question as to why the British education system is not producing the requisite number of male and female graduates to enter into those professions. Is it not the case that female students are now coming forth more than ever before, hopefully as a result of sexist barriers into what once was seen as a male preserve have been broken down.

I believe that najaB touches on some of the issues accurately.

Let me offer a perspective on how this then plays out:
I will be looking to recruit probably around 10 people onto different technology projects over the next year. Here's how it's likely to work out:

5 jobs will not have any local or EU applications at all.
3 jobs will have one UK applicant
2 jobs will have 2 or three UK applicants.

(I work is a University so we have nationally agreed pay scales and can't simply offer more money)
Of those 10 jobs, 2 are likely to be unfilled as we can't get anyone with the relevant skills to apply and we'll have to repeat the recruitment exercise. We will do this a maximum of three times before abandoning the project.

2 or 3 roles will be offered to a UK applicant.
2 or 3 roles will be offered to an EU applicant.
The rest will require sorting out work visas.

What's frustrating is that the individuals coming internationally often are on a type of visa which means they have to leave the UK once the project finishes. That means all the skills they have learnt leave and we don't benefit from them.


What would be far better is if the numbers of young people who are coming through the education system in STEM subjects were to increase. That's a cultural issue that covers the entire primary / secondary / 6th form education. Oh, I should probably mention that almost all of the undergraduate students in STEM subjects where I am seem to have remarkably little difficulty in finding a job at the end of their studies and many have a selection of job offers to choose from.
And as a last effort to keep vague on topic - with the competition for talent it is not surprising if the railway finds it hard to recruit. If the supplies of EU based skilled people is severely curtailed with a hard-brexit and no simple work visas I think that there will be problems for all high tech industry...

So, if you're in your teens and reading this - think about a career in high tech. There's lots of opportunity out there now and there will be in the future...
Mr Toad

 

[YorkshireBear]

Just to jump in on the engineering side of things with relation to graduates several points to make.

1. British culture and specifically the media paint the railways as a bad thing. Not attracting good British talent. They would much sooner work for Jaguar Land Rover, the banks, big consultancies working in other countries. We seem to struggle to get away from the picture of men spotting trains doing everything rather than it being a proper industry with a fantastically gratifying career.
2. Many other countries, particularly in the EU teach value in their public transport so working in what is still known as one of the busiest and the best attracts them. Indeed i work with a few who have taught me a great deal and i do not think we should EVER look at a 100% British workforce.
3. Women in Engineering - Because women are still treated badly in a male dominated profession, my wife, who is by far a better engineer (not rail) than i will ever be constantly sees this bias and mistreatment so it is real, it is not made up. There is still men in the railway who will look down on women and while that happens how can we expect them to want to come and work for us?
4. I was bullied at school for being clever, some of it by teachers. This country no longer sees value in intelligence for large parts. Parents of kids that bullied me thought it was cool because i was being nerdy and not having "fun" (fun being their description, i was always having fun!).

This rant can become increasingly spectacular when poked enough.

 

[thenorthern]

If we do have a Hard Brexit I think the railways in Northern Ireland would be affected more than any other part of the United Kingdom.

If you think about it all trains in Northern Ireland are built abroad in the European Union, the Enterprise service is a key part of the network unlike Eurostar which is only a very small part of the National Rail network and if there was any change in the open border between County Londonderry & Donegal less passengers would use the Londonderry line.

All this for Northern Ireland Railways despite the majority of people in the province not voting for an exit from the European Union.