EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[RichmondCommu]

She is the Minister who devised and implemented the advertising vans driving around BAME areas telling immigrants to "go home".

I note that you decided to omit the word illegal, as in the illegal immigrants which the advertising campaign was clearly aimed at.

I have no desire to see illegal immigrants in our country so in your eye's does that make me a racist as well?

I don't see how you can blame Theresa May for the actions of an organisation that she doesn't represent.

Why should I need to meet her to form an opinion? I've never met the leader of Britain First but I'd say he was a vile racist bigot too.

OK I'll help you out here. I've met Theresa May on several occasions as has my wife, who happens to be of Indian descent. My wife can spot a racist a mile off and yet is very happy to chat to her. Theresa May is certainly not a racist.

How you can compare Theresa May to the leader of Britain First is beyond me.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think May's record as Home Secretary- the demonisation of international students, the demonisation of asylum seekers, the violent abuse of vulnerable asylum seekers, the targeting of BAME areas for extra "enforcement"- speaks for itself.

I see Amber Rudd- May's personal appointee as new Home Secretary- is now proposing to send landlords to prison if they give shelter to an immigrant without the correct papers.

So yes, I stand by what I said.

Just to clarify matters. can you clarify that these asylum seekers "subjected to violent abuse" were legal or illegal ones, as you have used the term vulnerable as a blanket term in your posting, and give examples of the violent abuse perpetrated upon that is exterior to the laws prevailing.

Good news about landlords who are involved in such matters of non co-operation with the legal authorities

 

[Tetchytyke]

can you clarify that these asylum seekers "subjected to violent abuse" were legal or illegal ones, as you have used the term vulnerable as a blanket term in your posting, and give examples of the violent abuse perpetrated upon that is exterior to the laws prevailing

Google the words "Yarl's" "Wood" and "Harmondsworth" and you will see exactly what I mean.

http://www.channel4.com/news/harmondsworth-immigration-detention-centre-undercover-video

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35693227

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-27332370

We could also talk about the killing of Jimmy Mubenga. One of his killers had 76 racist text messages on his phone and another had sent a charming text message which read:

**** off and go home you free-loading, benefit grabbing, kid producing, violent, non-English speaking cock suckers and take those hairy faced, sandal wearing, bomb making, goat ****ing, smelly rag head *******s with you.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/dec/17/jimmy-mubenga-racist-texts-not-heard-case

Do I need to go on?

Or are you saying it's ok to treat people this way if they're "illegal"?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

OK I'll help you out here. I've met Theresa May on several occasions as has my wife, who happens to be of Indian descent. My wife can spot a racist a mile off and yet is very happy to chat to her. Theresa May is certainly not a racist.

I'm sure Ms May is very polite and very charming, one doesn't get to become Prime Minister without having the ability to charm people and chat to people from all walks of life.

I prefer to judge someone by deeds not words. And her deeds are xenophobic and totalitarian, at best.

 

[Howardh]

UKIP; new leader required.

 

[miami]

UKIP; new leader required.

18 days, not bad.

Sam Allardyce next perhaps?

 

[The 39 Steps]

Big Sam is solid Labour. He gave Jack Straw (Blackburn's former MP) a ringing endorsement when he was the Blackburn Rovers manager.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Google the words "Yarl's" "Wood" ....

This tells me it is an "immigrant removal centre". Can you clarify what the wording of that terminology means to you?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure Ms May is very polite and very charming, one doesn't get to become Prime Minister without having the ability to charm people and chat to people from all walks of life. I prefer to judge someone by deeds not words. And her deeds are xenophobic and totalitarian, at best.

Would your description that I have emboldened above also be a most accurate description of Vladimir Putin?

 

[AlterEgo]

UKIP; new leader required.

Another political party that doesn't know what it's actually for these days.

Meanwhile the Tories sit pretty with their majority that may even increase at the next election.

 

[Senex]

Meanwhile the Tories sit pretty with their majority that may even increase at the next election.

Will they, or will they have split? Unless the Tory Remainers are total hypocrits (which is perfectly possible of course, as they are just politicians), how can they go along with a hard Brexit imposed by royal prerogative?

 

[miami]

Would your description that I have emboldened above also be a most accurate description of Vladimir Putin?

Putin is clearly Totalitarian. I'm not sure if he's personally xenophobic, or if he's just using it to cement his power base, not that it matters either way. He's a dangerous person, and not in the same way that someone like Corbyn is a dangerous person.

There's a lot to be worried about on the world stage at the moment.

Will they, or will they have split? Unless the Tory Remainers are total hypocrits (which is perfectly possible of course, as they are just politicians), how can they go along with a hard Brexit imposed by royal prerogative?

With an electoral system that proportioned power in the commons in accordance with the number of votes that each party received, that might have happened. The Tory party has been a party of two camps for a long time, but they managed to cling together to maintain power.

The problem with the 2015 result for those of us not on the fringes of the "right" of the tory party was the fringes of the party had control. For 2010-2015 they could be fairly well ignored as the lib dems were on side.

Blair had a similar thing for his tenure, however a large majority meant that the crazies like Abbot, Corbyn, Skinner, etc could be safely ignored.

For me an ideal result for 2015 would have been another Con/Lib coalition, after that it would have been a substantial (100 seat) majority for Cameron.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Would your description that I have emboldened above also be a most accurate description of Vladimir Putin?

I'm unsure what relevance Vladmir Putin (who incidentally made it clear he was in favour of Brexit) has to do with anything?

This tells me it is an "immigrant removal centre". Can you clarify what the wording of that terminology means to you?

Are you saying it is OK to leave people in rat infested cells, and treat them with violence, because they are "illegals" who ought to be "removed"?

My issue isn't with deporting people who shouldn't be here, my issue is with how we treat those people whilst we're doing it.

My issue is also with how Ms May is choosing to define "illegal migrants". People who are settled here and have work permits are being told to leave because they earn less than £35,000 per year. That sums the woman up.

 

[meridian2]

That viewpoint reinforces the 'no-win situation' many of these detention centre managers find themselves in. You could substitute them for policemen, teachers, the situation would be the same. We either treat them too inhumanely, or too liberally, and the managers can't win.
The fact is if any inmates were being treated inhumanely, why did it need a media investigation to reveal the conditions? The words 'hatchet job' spring to mind.

 

[AlterEgo]

Will they, or will they have split? Unless the Tory Remainers are total hypocrits (which is perfectly possible of course, as they are just politicians), how can they go along with a hard Brexit imposed by royal prerogative?

The Tories realise that being in government, slightly fractured, is much better than being on the Opposition, totally shattered.

I agree they're sort of gaffer-taped together at the moment but they seem totally unshakeable. More a comment on the other parties than the Tories themselves.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Tbh them more worrying bit for me is what has been talked about regarding a "shame" list where employers have to specifically list foreign workers. This seems designed to specifically pander to UKIP voters who and the whole "they are taking our jobs" crap.

 

[ExRes]

Tbh them more worrying bit for me is what has been talked about regarding a "shame" list where employers have to specifically list foreign workers. This seems designed to specifically pander to UKIP voters who and the whole "they are taking our jobs" crap.

You'll be good enough to put links to this shame list you've mentioned I hope and explain who exactly is pandering to UKIP voters

 

[WelshBluebird]

You'll be good enough to put links to this shame list you've mentioned I hope and explain who exactly is pandering to UKIP voters

The main article is in the Times, so the link isn't the full article but:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/firms-must-list-foreign-workers-gw20ndp5x

As for how it is pandering to UKIP voters. Well I really hope you are intelligent enough to work it our for yourself. The very idea of ""shaming bosses" who recruit some foreign staff is very much a UKIP idea. The whole "those foreigners taking our jobs" rubbish. And if you want another person who thinks the Tories are taking UKIP ideas, how about one of UKIP's MEP's? https://twitter.com/oflynnmep/status/783313098505584641

Remember, we are not just talking about low paid unskilled work here (though that is another topic altogether about why Brits don't seem to end up doing those jobs themselves), but also about highly paid highly skilled work, where we DO want to be open for the best in the world.

 

[Hornet]

Tbh them more worrying bit for me is what has been talked about regarding a "shame" list where employers have to specifically list foreign workers. This seems designed to specifically pander to UKIP voters who and the whole "they are taking our jobs" crap.

Are you sure that it is not this UKIP (sic) Politician?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1562791/Gordon-Brown-pledges-jobs-for-British-workers.html

 

[TheKnightWho]

The £ has hit rock bottom at $1.27. This is beginning to get really worrying.

I have to say that the thing that surprised me the most is that a lot of right-wing, pro-Brexit people seem to have got the impression from the Sun, Daily Mail and Express that the exchange rate recovered after its initial fall post-Brexit, which is not even remotely close to true... There were a couple of rises of 1¢ or so as it stabilised which were followed by equal falls, yet the right-wing press trumpeted this as some kind of victory for the market. Total propaganda to cover their own a*ses.

Anyone still going to argue it's patronising to say people aren't influenced by the papers when the data is right there for them to see that there was no recovery whatsoever?

 

[miami]

The £ has hit rock bottom at $1.27. This is beginning to get really worrying.

XE.com chart of the pound since the 2015 election

 

[miami]

Since the referendum

 

[AlterEgo]

Good news if some of your income is paid in US dollars (like Adsense), but overall a very worrying sign.

No mention of it at the Conservative Party Conference of course. And I'm not sure the Labour one either...

 

[TheKnightWho]

Good news if some of your income is paid in US dollars (like Adsense), but overall a very worrying sign.

No mention of it at the Conservative Party Conference of course. And I'm not sure the Labour one either...

Labour still haven't learned that to oppose the Tories you need to undercut them directly, and not to pander to some third-way dream that just ends up half-a*sing everything.

 

[Howardh]

The £ has hit rock bottom at $1.27. This is beginning to get really worrying.

I have to say that the thing that surprised me the most is that a lot of right-wing, pro-Brexit people seem to have got the impression from the Sun, Daily Mail and Express that the exchange rate recovered after its initial fall post-Brexit, which is not even remotely close to true... There were a couple of rises of 1¢ or so as it stabilised which were followed by equal falls, yet the right-wing press trumpeted this as some kind of victory for the market. Total propaganda to cover their own a*ses.

Anyone still going to argue it's patronising to say people aren't influenced by the papers when the data is right there for them to see that there was no recovery whatsoever?

It's beginning to sink in a little. There are murmourings on other messageboards that they are getting fewer Euros for the October half-term than they expected. Luckily for them, their hotels were probably already booked at better rates earlier in the year.
Of course oil is bought in dollars and sooner than later it will hit the pumps and the airline industry. Any rises may be hidden by the current cost of crude being so low ($49/barrel - was $28 in January) but if that "recovers" to 2014 levels of $100, then someone's gonna take a huge hit. Er, us, drivers, tourists, shoppers and so on.
Not a lot we can do about the base price of crude, but we can do a lot about £/$/euro rates by abandoning Brexit to save the £ in everyone's pocket.
But we won't. The People have voted for this; well done them.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It's beginning to sink in a little. There are murmourings on other messageboards that they are getting fewer Euros for the October half-term than they expected. Luckily for them, their hotels were probably already booked at better rates earlier in the year.
Of course oil is bought in dollars and sooner than later it will hit the pumps and the airline industry. Any rises may be hidden by the current cost of crude being so low ($49/barrel - was $28 in January) but if that "recovers" to 2014 levels of $100, then someone's gonna take a huge hit. Er, us, drivers, tourists, shoppers and so on.
Not a lot we can do about the base price of crude, but we can do a lot about £/$/euro rates by abandoning Brexit to save the £ in everyone's pocket.
But we won't. The People have voted for this; well done them.

I've noticed that any compromise on hard Brexit is dismissed as "whining" or "not what the people voted for", even though hard Brexit never got any kind of mandate.

Lying to get a (narrow) result that you want in a referendum and then hiding behind a representative democracy to push for the most extreme version of that result that has no majority whatsoever is pure manipulation. Frankly, I'm completely disgusted.

 

[Howardh]

I've noticed that any compromise on hard Brexit is dismissed as "whining" or "not what the people voted for", even though hard Brexit never got any kind of mandate.

Lying to get a (narrow) result that you want in a referendum and then hiding behind a representative democracy to push for the most extreme version of that result that has no majority whatsoever is pure manipulation. Frankly, I'm completely disgusted.

The odd thing is, Leavers are happy to go along with it. I keep getting feedback that the extra costs are fine if we "bring back control" and keep a few hundred immigrants out. If the recession, nay, depression sets in, anyone that can leave will leave, and we'll be begging for immigrants to work here, to keep the NHS going, to fund our pensions!

But, hey, Ukopia's expensive and we have to live with it.

 

[yorksrob]

Isn't part of the underlying problem that the weak pound is bad because we rely too much on imports anyway. A lot has been said on this forum that the public has been unwilling to listen to experts on the subject. One expert is surely the Governor of the Bank of England who has warned consistently about our massive current account deficit, yet I hear precious little about doing anything about it, just free market platitudes.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Isn't part of the underlying problem that the weak pound is bad because we rely too much on imports anyway. A lot has been said on this forum that the public has been unwilling to listen to experts on the subject. One expert is surely the Governor of the Bank of England who has warned consistently about our massive current account deficit, yet I hear precious little about doing anything about it, just free market platitudes.

The deficit was fine so long as we had a strong pound. The thing about these things is that they are mutually dependent - having a deficit is fine so long as we have the currency to deal with it; it's not a "problem" that was only being off-set by the currency.

The issue is that making things at home won't off-set the problem very much. Whilst it might cost slightly less than the now-inflated costs to import, it still won't be as cheap as it was when we were importing with a strong currency. As such, we're worse off either way.

 

[yorksrob]

The deficit was fine so long as we had a strong pound. The thing about these things is that they are mutually dependent - having a deficit is fine so long as we have the currency to deal with it; it's not a "problem" that was only being off-set by the currency.

The issue is that making things at home won't off-set the problem very much. Whilst it might cost slightly less than the now-inflated costs to import, it still won't be as cheap as it was when we were importing with a strong currency. As such, we're worse off either way.

It will offset the cost some of the way and really we should be off-setting costs as much as we can. But even if it costs more than the import, that cost will still go back into the British economy to be spent again in the British economy providing added value.

I'm not saying this is a panacea in any sense, just that we should adapt to make the economy a little bit more independent. The other issue is that the more independent the economy is, the less vulnerable we are to external shocks.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It will offset the cost some of the way and really we should be off-setting costs as much as we can. But even if it costs more than the import, that cost will still go back into the British economy to be spent again in the British economy providing added value.

I'm not saying this is a panacea in any sense, just that we should adapt to make the economy a little bit more independent. The other issue is that the more independent the economy is, the less vulnerable we are to external shocks.

It won't off-set costs if we have to produce it at home to greater cost... And sure, it does go back into the British economy, but so did all the wealth generated from what we imported in the form of services.

Reducing the trade deficit is only a good thing now that we have a weaker currency, and unfortunately all it means is that we can afford to produce things here again because it's more expensive to import them, and not because we can undercut foreign markets. It's not like China where they artificially reduce the value of their currency because they export more than they import.

Regarding external shocks - you're right, but it means we're much more susceptible to internal ones. Any crisis happens and we're screwed, whereas any crisis that affects the globe is either so big it would affect us anyway, or is mitigated by the fact that it's an economy much, much, much larger than ours.

 

[yorksrob]

It won't off-set costs if we have to produce it at home to greater cost... And sure, it does go back into the British economy, but so did all the wealth generated from what we imported in the form of services.

Reducing the trade deficit is only a good thing now that we have a weaker currency, and unfortunately all it means is that we can afford to produce things here again because it's more expensive to import them, and not because we can undercut foreign markets. It's not like China where they artificially reduce the value of their currency because they export more than they import.

Regarding external shocks - you're right, but it means we're much more susceptible to internal ones. Any crisis happens and we're screwed, whereas any crisis that affects the globe is either so big it would affect us anyway, or is mitigated by the fact that it's an economy much, much, much larger than ours.

One could argue that because the trade deficit causes problems particularly when the pound is weak, it is automatically a bad thing because it restricts the ability of the country to make democratic political decisions about how it's economy is managed.

With regard to internal shocks, yes that assumes more of an imperative for the state to intervene to mitigate such shocks (although I would have been inclined towards that anyway).

But surely the point about economic shocks is, external ones are generally more difficult for Governments to intervene against.