GTR tell passengers to tweet the RMT their disgust

[bb21]

I would have thought it quite obvious that the DfT has won.

I wouldn't describe it as them "winning", however they came out the other end relatively unscathed, compared to everyone else.

Maybe that is your definition of "winning", as in "being the lesser of all the losers"?

 

[Master29]

The RMT have been loving things today, re-tweeting lots of comments and making jokes.

A common theme is people saying they want Southern out and British Rail back in. I guess it wasn't even worth trying to reply to anyone to point out that British Rail started DOO and it's the DfT doing it now. With any more management contracts, you can pretty much be sure that all remaining trains with guards will go the same way.

An awful lot of people are of course not on Twitter and there's always an assumption that it's bigger than it really is. Partly because it's so well used by people in media and PR, so of course everyone must be.

I am not sure either side will win or lose from this. By tomorrow, everyone will have forgotten and just be moaning about cancelled trains as usual - not really caring who is at fault.

I wonder if Jeremy and his activists should hop on board?

Fair points but why the right wing bias at the end.

 

[mirodo]

In DOO land, and with stations staffed all day and night, there are people on the platform to assist with ramps. But it does mean asking for help and telling people where you're going to get off.

There are many wheelchair users on my line and there have never been guards in all my years of travelling.

It's rather more a problem at unmanned stations.

I alighted at East Croydon one evening last week. No guard on board, and a wheelchair passenger in my carriage who had been boarded at Clapham Junction and also wished to alight. There was no sign of any assistance. Another passenger held the door while I went in search of a member of station staff, who I eventually found dispatching a service on the opposite platform. Had it not been for our intervention, the lady (who had three small children with her) would have faced being over-carried to the next station.

 

[jon0844]

Fair points but why the right wing bias at the end.

It's not left vs right, rather the behaviour and wording of things is very much like naive students who support Corbyn but don't seem to be aware of the bigger picture.

It would seem like this latest spat is something Momentum would leap on, but for all I know, it possibly has already.

 

[Dave1987]

I alighted at East Croydon one evening last week. No guard on board, and a wheelchair passenger in my carriage who had been boarded at Clapham Junction and also wished to alight. There was no sign of any assistance. Another passenger held the door while I went in search of a member of station staff, who I eventually found dispatching a service on the opposite platform. Had it not been for our intervention, the lady (who had three small children with her) would have faced being over-carried to the next station.

That sure sounds like they care for the disabled.....

 

[Master29]

It's not left vs right, rather the behaviour and wording of things is very much like naive students who support Corbyn but don't seem to be aware of the bigger picture.

It would seem like this latest spat is something Momentum would leap on, but for all I know, it possibly has already.

Naive people who follow Corbyn? You`ve just proved my point.

 

[jon0844]

Naive people who follow Corbyn? You`ve just proved my point.

Not sure how that can be seen as a right wing comment? At all.

 

[fgwrich]

That sure sounds like they care for the disabled.....

Oh but haven't you seen Connex Charlie's fancy posters? They've always looked after their customers with disabilities and always will! They want to improve your service and have more staff lavishing your onboard needs, not these horrible door things...

(Sarcasm alert)

 

[Robertj21a]

I wouldn't describe it as them "winning", however they came out the other end relatively unscathed, compared to everyone else.

Maybe that is your definition of "winning", as in "being the lesser of all the losers"?

The question was worded to give a simple answer ...........'I am not sure that either side will win or lose'. In that context, I couldn't see that anyone other than the DfT had 'won'.

 

[ungreat]

I am not sure either side will win or lose from this. By tomorrow, everyone will have forgotten and just be moaning about cancelled trains as usual - not really caring who is at fault.

The quote of the day.
In my experience,passengers tend to be very selfish and do not care about the bigger picture unless it trends on Twitter or is popular on on Facemoron/book.
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I would have thought it quite obvious that the DfT has won.

Mainly because most passengers/onlookers wont know they are the puppet masters and directly blame Southern.Who are simply carrying out the DfTs orders

I've seen tweets from passengers stating "the drivers should get back to work instead of striking".....when were they on strike then? Mention "strike" to people and the hackles are raised instantly...usually because they don't have that option
Passengers..customers..whatever you want to call them are not concerned in the slightest who wins or loses in this dispute.All they care about is their own selves and their own little world ...nothing more

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps if those in the wider workforce hadn't been so quick to turn their backs on union representation then everyone would have better job protection...

It's not a race to the bottom, but ignorance and apathy towards unionism is helping the government make it one.

A union could do little to protect workers who breach their contracts by not turning up for work due to frequent industrial action on public transport.
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I'm no expert in Employment law so don't shot me down but doesn't TUPE law mean that if one franchise loses its role the successor has to take on the existing staff?

No but transferred staff remain on exactly the same contract terms so if someone joined BR in 1991 and are made redundant by Southern in 2021, they would get redundancy pay based on 30 years service.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I've seen the ad and I really don't see what the big deal is quite honestly?]

You don't see the problem with spending £100,000 on taking out a national advert to attack your own workforce?

I'm no expert in Employment law so don't shot me down but doesn't TUPE law mean that if one franchise loses its role the successor has to take on the existing staff?

TUPE has very limited scope: it doesn't cover pensions and it is time limited, for two things. It also doesn't apply if the transferor can demonstrate a business need for redundancies; there would be little to stop a new franchisee making all the OBS staff redundant the day they took over.

But this thread wasn't started to rehash those arguments. It was to attack Horton and McCarthy for chucking one hundred thousand pounds up the wall on an advertising campaign attacking their own workforce.

ETA: Just seen Metro this morning. In Newcastle. Southern were running full page adverts again. In a part of the country they don't serve. And that'll add another £30,000 to the total they've spent slagging off their own workforce.

And Charles "failure" Horton and Piero "failure" McCarthy wonder why their staff won't do anything to help them, even on the Thameslink and Great Northern routes far away from the DOO dispute. It's a mystery innit. Complete mystery.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Southern have chosen to spend a hundred grand yesterday, and it's looking like a similar amount again today, to slag off their workforce in a national newspaper advert campaign.

What do we think will happen to staff morale and staff willingness to go the extra mile? Do we think drivers will willingly work rest days? Or do we think we're going to have loads of staff shortages on DOO routes too.

Southern have set out exactly what they think of their staff with this misguided marketing campaign. I don't see how GoVia are ever going to be able to function going forwards with their attitude to staff. The OBS battle is probably lost- DafT are underwriting the losses- but even DOO trains need a driver.

If we thought the cancellations under First were bad, I can't wait to see what will happen now.

I can't see how this franchise can ever be salvaged now, to be quite honest. GTR management have torched whatever remained of staff goodwill. And they can't run the franchise without it.

 

[samuelmorris]

I'm not sure I agree with two statements:

1- GTR are using these anti-RMT banners to attack their own workforce. Surely when jobs are even rumoured to be on the line, employees would seek guidance from unions? I don't equivocate attacking unions with attacking staff members, even if I do think these adverts are rather misguided.
2- that the RMT are absolved from blame.
If strike action is ineffective, for the reasons pointed out, which makes perfect sense, then why plan additional 14-day strikes?

Also, I've no intention of sticking up for a TOC that has clearly suffered numerous issues unrelated to industrial action but I do have to agree with the puppet master comments. There's no excuse for staff being actually bullied, if that's really happening, but it it's just threatening letters and so on, perhaps it's a little naive but it does seem to me like almost every action from GTR is dictated by the government. People calling for renationalisation need to actually pay attention (not directed at anybody in this thread I'm glad to say).

 

[Deepgreen]

I'm not sure I agree with two statements:

1- GTR are using these anti-RMT banners to attack their own workforce. Surely when jobs are even rumoured to be on the line, employees would seek guidance from unions? I don't equivocate attacking unions with attacking staff members, even if I do think these adverts are rather misguided.
2- that the RMT are absolved from blame.
If strike action is ineffective, for the reasons pointed out, which makes perfect sense, then why plan additional 14-day strikes?

Also, I've no intention of sticking up for a TOC that has clearly suffered numerous issues unrelated to industrial action but I do have to agree with the puppet master comments. There's no excuse for staff being actually bullied, if that's really happening, but it it's just threatening letters and so on, perhaps it's a little naive but it does seem to me like almost every action from GTR is dictated by the government. People calling for renationalisation need to actually pay attention (not directed at anybody in this thread I'm glad to say).

Did you mean 'advocate' or 'equate' here? They will not be 14-day strikes, but a total of 14 days spread out until the end of the year. Regarding "renationalisation" - under that scenario at least HMG would not be able to hide behind TOCs to try to force through policies.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't equivocate attacking unions with attacking staff members, even if I do think these adverts are rather misguided.

Unions don't exist separately from their members, particularly on the railways. Spending £130,000 on full-page adverts attacking the unions and crowing about beating them is a direct attack on the members of those unions who will lose out in "defeat".

It's about more than the RMT. Remember GTR took an injunction out against ASLEF too.

Just don't be surprised if we see a lot more DOO services cancelled due to drivers not wanting to work overtime or rest days.

If strike action is ineffective, for the reasons pointed out, which makes perfect sense, then why plan additional 14-day strikes?

The RMT were goaded into strike action by GTR, with GTR knowing that the government would be protecting them. The RMT's error of judgement was in not understanding quickly enough that this was about more than GTR. The RMT took the bait, took strike action, and it quickly ran away from them.

I don't think the RMT could have done much differently, though. They either try and defend themselves using the tools they have available, or they bend over and spread their cheeks. GTR are now offering the guards £2000 inducements to go quietly. That wasn't on the table at the start. So the RMT haven't completely failed.

There's no excuse for staff being actually bullied, if that's really happening, but it it's just threatening letters and so on

GTR have done far more than sent out a few "threatening letters", it's been the petty and vindictive things like cancelling staff car parking passes that gets my goat.

 

[sarahj]

Anyway. From what I've seen the campaign has been cancelled and any posters have been/are being removed.

And that's all I will say on the matter.

 

[Robertj21a]

Unions don't exist separately from their members, particularly on the railways. Spending £130,000 on full-page adverts attacking the unions and crowing about beating them is a direct attack on the members of those unions who will lose out in "defeat".

It's about more than the RMT. Remember GTR took an injunction out against ASLEF too.

Just don't be surprised if we see a lot more DOO services cancelled due to drivers not wanting to work overtime or rest days.



The RMT were goaded into strike action by GTR, with GTR knowing that the government would be protecting them. The RMT's error of judgement was in not understanding quickly enough that this was about more than GTR. The RMT took the bait, took strike action, and it quickly ran away from them.

I don't think the RMT could have done much differently, though. They either try and defend themselves using the tools they have available, or they bend over and spread their cheeks. GTR are now offering the guards £2000 inducements to go quietly. That wasn't on the table at the start. So the RMT haven't completely failed.



GTR have done far more than sent out a few "threatening letters", it's been the petty and vindictive things like cancelling staff car parking passes that gets my goat.

As others have said, the adverts won't be paid for by Southern anyway.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As others have said, the adverts won't be paid for by Southern anyway.

No, the adverts will be paid for by GTR. DfT cannot, of course, contribute towards the marketing budget of any TOC.

Whether other money will head back to GTR later is a different argument altogether...

I see they've pulled it because it has backfired so spectacularly. Whoever dreamed up that idea has a serious error of judgement.

 

[samuelmorris]

Did you mean 'advocate' or 'equate' here? They will not be 14-day strikes, but a total of 14 days spread out until the end of the year. Regarding "renationalisation" - under that scenario at least HMG would not be able to hide behind TOCs to try to force through policies.

whoops, thought I corrected all the auto-correct mistakes, guess that one slipped through, I meant advocate.

Unions don't exist separately from their members, particularly on the railways. Spending £130,000 on full-page adverts attacking the unions and crowing about beating them is a direct attack on the members of those unions who will lose out in "defeat".

It's about more than the RMT. Remember GTR took an injunction out against ASLEF too.

Just don't be surprised if we see a lot more DOO services cancelled due to drivers not wanting to work overtime or rest days.

Fair point, but even though I'm sure the RMT always have the needs of their members at heart, it isn't the workers themselves that GTR are 'negotiating' with.

I still saw the campaign (though different text) in the evening standard this evening - now pointing out that the strikes are over potential job losses rather than safety, which I have to say I agree with. While I concede there may be a small safety gain in having guards rather than platform dispatchers, honestly I think the effect is pretty negligible.
The only time I disagree with it is if the TOC do not also intend to staff stations, then the safety point is fair game. As may have been obvious, I'm still fairly pro-DOO as long as it's introduced sensibly, but that's straying into the other thread's discussion.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Campaign pulled. Lesson learned in how NOT to run a publicity campaign

 

[physics34]

Campaign pulled. Lesson learned in how NOT to run a publicity campaign

There is so much I want to say about this but can't as I'm employed by them...... grrrr

 

[richw]

It seems reading the tweets, the majority of passengers support the RMT. I was surprised, but clearly the passengers have a view that agrees with the RMT stance.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.....
The only time I disagree with it is if the TOC do not also intend to staff stations, then the safety point is fair game. As may have been obvious, I'm still fairly pro-DOO as long as it's introduced sensibly, but that's straying into the other thread's discussion.

Given they've already tried to close a large number of their ticket offices (and still might), I don't think what remains of their dispatch staff are far behind.

 

[bb21]

There is an existing thread on the ongoing dispute between GTR and their staff. Please use that one. I have deleted all the off-topic posts and moved some.

Please keep to topic in this thread. Thank you.

 

[nottsnurse]

It seems reading the tweets, the majority of passengers support the RMT. I was surprised, but clearly the passengers have a view that agrees with the RMT stance.

Perhaps the general public is starting to wake up the rubbish put out by successive right-leaning governments and their funders in the private sector?

Perhaps not all those throwing their weight behind Jeremy Corbyn and his socially aware comrades are 'naive students' after all?

 

[AlterEgo]

It seems reading the tweets, the majority of passengers support the RMT. I was surprised, but clearly the passengers have a view that agrees with the RMT stance.

No, the majority of people who tweeted them thought the poster was offensive and frankly wrong (which it was, which imbecile thought it up??). That's a few hundred people on Twitter, which is a fairly left wing and dissenting platform in itself.

Most people just don't care and want a proper train service.

 

[Antman]

It seems reading the tweets, the majority of passengers support the RMT. I was surprised, but clearly the passengers have a view that agrees with the RMT stance.

Passengers can be very fickle, they'll say they want guards but soon change their mind when their train is cancelled because no guard is available.
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Perhaps the general public is starting to wake up the rubbish put out by successive right-leaning governments and their funders in the private sector?

Perhaps not all those throwing their weight behind Jeremy Corbyn and his socially aware comrades are 'naive students' after all?

Is this really the place for a political debate?

 

[Dave1987]

Passengers can be very fickle, they'll say they want guards but soon change their mind when their train is cancelled because no guard is available.
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Is this really the place for a political debate?

Weren't you the one claiming you couldn't see anything wrong with the posters? Yet it's proven to have gone down very badly with Joe public. Shows you judgment is very bad in these matters!

 

[Llanigraham]

No, the majority of people who tweeted them thought the poster was offensive and frankly wrong (which it was, which imbecile thought it up??). That's a few hundred people on Twitter, which is a fairly left wing and dissenting platform in itself.

Most people just don't care and want a proper train service.

I think you will find that there is an awfull lot more than that on Twitter!!
I also think that you will find that they cover the whole gambit of political beliefs, from the far right to the far left.