33027 & 33056 why cut up?

[Blaahh]

Hoping someone can help me, having only recently returned to the world of rail enthusiasm after a 25 year gap! So being a Southern Region teenager, the celebrity locos were Earl Mountbatten of Burma, The Burma Star and Broadlands. Now, happy still to see Broadlands around but the other two i understand are in the great scrapyard in the sky. Anyone know why the two 33s werent saved at the expense of less celebrated 33s please?

 

[AJM580]

Probably because they were withdrawn quite early on in the 1990s. Most preserved 33/0s seem to have come from the batches withdrawn from 1995 onwards. Even though I'm from Norfolk where 33s aren't at all common I did see 33027 at Norwich CP open day in 1983 and had 33056 from Salisbury to Bath in 1986

 

[sd0733]

33056 survived into the early 2000s though being used at Churnet valley railway for spares for their 33. A Flickr search shows quite a few pictures of it at Oakamoor upto 2004. Was even missing the cab roof at one end

 

[RichmondCommu]

Perhaps it's easier to raise funds to repair / restore steam locomotives than it is to buy diesels offered for disposal, or indeed to restore them.

 

[Cowley]

For a long time the only 33s that were named were:

33008 Eastleigh
33025 Sultan
33027 Earl Mountbatton of Burma
33052 Ashford
33056 The Burma Star

More were named late in the 80s/early 90s.
Of the original five, 33008, 33025 and 33052 still survive which is quite impressive really (WCRCs 33025 is called Loch something or other now).
To me, apart from 33008 (once it was painted green), 33027 and 33056 were the main celebrities with their silver roofs and Royal wedding connections. 33027 was often seen on the VSOE Pullmans and was usually quite clean.
It is a bit of a shame it didn't survive but as AJM580 said, it was withdrawn fairly early on and maybe there were others that were less tired when the time came to start preserving some.
If you were a potential buyer walking along a scrapline, the missing nameplate and silver roof might not have been enough to sway you over one that was going to need a lot less money spent on it...

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Perhaps it's easier to raise funds to repair / restore steam locomotives than it is to buy diesels offered for disposal, or indeed to restore them.

Very true, steam engines are big revenue earners for preserved lines and railtours, diesels, particularly smaller ones like the 33s only appeal to the more dedicated fans.

Look at the turnouts for Flying Scotsman on the mainline, compared to WCRC's recent 33 run from Carnforth to Scarborough...!

 

[Ianigsy]

I think diesel preservationists are a little more hard-headed than their steam counterparts these days, particularly with the privatised railway offering the potential for privately-owned Type 3s and above to be hired out for main line use. A loco in decent mechanical condition can earn its keep regardless of whether it has any celebrity status or not.

 

[Cowley]

I think diesel preservationists are a little more hard-headed than their steam counterparts these days, particularly with the privatised railway offering the potential for privately-owned Type 3s and above to be hired out for main line use. A loco in decent mechanical condition can earn its keep regardless of whether it has any celebrity status or not.

Good call. It's amazing how it's worked out. When 46035 broke the ban and started operating on railtours, most people couldn't have imagined the situation we have today with the line between being preserved or just privately operated being so blurred.
Deltics on freight, 50s on freight, green 37s on test trains. If you'd have told me this would be happening 25 years ago I'd have laughed at you!

 

[physics34]

Good call. It's amazing how it's worked out. When 46035 broke the ban and started operating on railtours, most people couldn't have imagined the situation we have today with the line between being preserved or just privately operated being so blurred.
Deltics on freight, 50s on freight, green 37s on test trains. If you'd have told me this would be happening 25 years ago I'd have laughed at you!

It's great to see. I almost get a tear in my eye when.i see 20s on sandite trains and 37s still roaring about!

 

[33056]

Worth pointing out that 33056 was damaged in collision at Hoo Junction in November 1990 and was withdrawn a couple of months later so it was a little surprising that it was preserved in the first place.

 

[RichmondCommu]

From memory one of the class 33's was repainted in green at some point in the mid 1980's. There were always a few on shed at Bristol Bath Road even though none were ever allocated there.

Sorry,I've just re-read post 5!

 

[PHILIPE]

From memory one of the class 33's was repainted in green at some point in the mid 1980's. There were always a few on shed at Bristol Bath Road even though none were ever allocated there.

Sorry,I've just re-read post 5!

They used to work Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbours which is how they would be at Bristol in numbers. They would change locos there due to the reversal although some ran round.

 

[Cowley]

They used to work Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbours which is how they would be at Bristol in numbers. They would change locos there due to the reversal although some ran round.

In a blue and grey mk1 with dim lightbulbs behind a 33 as it put down the power accelerating from the centre of the Severn tunnel towards Bristol or Wales was a rather nice place to be.

 

[eisenach]

THey also used to work the Marches Line in the 80s. I used to see them from my classroom window in Ludlow. They made a distraction from bashing on at the kids !

 

[PHILIPE]

THey also used to work the Marches Line in the 80s. I used to see them from my classroom window in Ludlow. They made a distraction from bashing on at the kids !

They went to Milford Haven as well

 

[Ianigsy]

In the mid-1980s the general feeling outside the Southern Region was that the 33s were over-maintained and underworked compared to other diesel classes, being diagrammed for more frequent maintenance and works visits than, say, your average 37. The SR's usual response when challenged was that they needed this level of maintenance to reduce the risk of failure on one of the main lines out of London in the peaks.

Coincidence or not, it was around this time that they started to be diagrammed for more work off the Southern; Portsmouth-Cardiff as already mentioned, but also some work in the West Country, South Wales and up the Marches to North Wales and Manchester. It was fairly easy to diagram a loco so it could go from Eastleigh onto Portsmouth-Cardiff for a day, finish at Bristol or Cardiff and then the following day pick up a Marches diagram, finish back at Cardiff again and then back to Eastleigh the following day.

Come sectorisation, most of the 33s ended up nominally allocated to freight or departmental use as the 155s and later 158s were in place by then, however the Civil Engineer's locos in particular weren't averse to turning up on passenger diagrams. In my time studying at Bristol I caught 33116 one December Saturday morning in 1990 working a Southampton stopping service with a 4TC unit vice a DEMU and a couple of weeks later the same pairing was on Waterloo-Salisbury duties (which were all theoretically Class 50s by this time). February the following year saw 33025 Sultan commandeered for an Exeter-Barnstaple diagram following overnight snow, so the traction and route knowledge was still available in 1991.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Coincidence or not, it was around this time that they started to be diagrammed for more work off the Southern; Portsmouth-Cardiff as already mentioned, but also some work in the West Country, South Wales and up the Marches to North Wales and Manchester. It was fairly easy to diagram a loco so it could go from Eastleigh onto Portsmouth-Cardiff for a day, finish at Bristol or Cardiff and then the following day pick up a Marches diagram, finish back at Cardiff again and then back to Eastleigh the following day.

I'd be interested to know how often if indeed ever class 33s received overnight maintenance at either Crewe Diesel or Longsight

 

[PHILIPE]

There was an instance in 1994 just before privatisation and long after 33s had ceased working to Manchester and West Wales, which got all the fans excited and rushing to travel. There used to be a diagram worked by a 37/4 and coaches which worked between Cardiff and Weymouth. It used to start the day at Westbury working what is now 0647 Westbury to Weymouth and 0853 Weymouth to Bristol TM which ran through to Cardiff, fuelled/changed over at Canton thence 1400 Cardiff to Weymouth (now 1250 ex Great Malvern to Weymouth) and finished up at Westbury at night.. However, this failed at Westbury one morning and was replaced by a Class 33 which had worked into Westbury from the SR on a freight. Westbury drivers who still had traction knowledge of them had to work the job.

 

[Cowley]

This has become quite an interesting thread. My experiences with 33s in Exeter during the mid to late 80s/early 90s were that they were used on the Barnstaple turns on summer Saturdays and on the Waterloo turns when a 50 or later on a 47 had given up (33s struggled to keep time on these), very occasionally and I know this because I saw it a couple of times, a 33/1 would turn up with a couple of TC sets on a Waterloo turn.
There were often 33s on the 1725 Exeter to Paignton and in fact that was how I got a lot of my 33/0s just doing a quick trip to St Thomas to get a line in the book.

There was a very early (5:50 I think) Exeter St Davids to Brighton that was often a pair of 33s until 47s took over around 1988 and in the afternoon on summer Saturdays up to I think 1987 there was a Brighton to Exeter turn that bought a pair of 33/2s to St Davids, we used to go up to Central with our meagre pocket money resources, again just to get them in the book.
33/1s used to appear fairly frequently and certainly didn't seem to be confined to Waterloo - Salisbury turns, they also often went to Meldon later on.

So going back to the locos in the original question, in Exeter the 33s allocated to Eastleigh were far easier to get than the ones allocated to Stewarts Lane when much of my time was spent trying to get lines in my little old Platform 5 book. Of the original namers from the 80s 33008, 33025 and 33027 were reasonably common in Exeter whereas 33052 and 33056 weren't.
So where were those Stewarts Lane ones most likely to be?

 

[randyrippley]

There were often 33s on the 1725 Exeter to Paignton and in fact that was how I got a lot of my 33/0s just doing a quick trip to St Thomas to get a line in the book.

Wasn't that basically a stabling run to get the coaches to Newton Abbott overnight?

33/1s used to appear fairly frequently and certainly didn't seem to be confined to Waterloo - Salisbury turns, they also often went to Meldon later on.

There were more 33/1s converted than could be justified for just the Weymouth service, so they had to be used somewhere. If anything there were periods when they seemed to be the mainstay of Waterloo-Exeter services. Even after the class 50s took over, some services remained as 33 duties. The first short up service from Yeovil (~6.40am) was usually a 4 or 8TC with 33/1 at the country end. Using it saved a runaround at Yeovil.
There was also an up evening service from Exeter in the early 1980's which terminated short at (I think) Sherborne and could be a DMU or 25/31 plus 3 or 4 coaches

So going back to the locos in the original question, in Exeter the 33s allocated to Eastleigh were far easier to get than the ones allocated to Stewarts Lane when much of my time was spent trying to get lines in my little old Platform 5 book. Of the original namers from the 80s 33008, 33025 and 33027 were reasonably common in Exeter whereas 33052 and 33056 weren't.

I only ever saw one SL allocated 33 on Waterloo-Exeter duties (a 33/2), and on thinking about it I only ever saw EH allocated 33s on wandering passenger services. Did the Stewarts Lane ones ever get used on inter-regional passenger duties?

 

[37038]

Simple fact is more often than not locos are preserved based on condition and not on the great big plate on the side. Obviously there are exceptions to this

 

[PHILIPE]

I'd be interested to know how often if indeed ever class 33s received overnight maintenance at either Crewe Diesel or Longsight

33s worked the route between 1981 and 1986, services didn't normally run beyond Crewe to Manchester until 1988. I think one may have stabled at Crewe but left parked in the Bay. During their period, there was an odd service to Manchester and one to Bangor but these were out and back from Cardiff during the day.

 

[Phil.]

Why cut up two class 33 locomotives? Because of the scrap value. They're not special or rare.

 

[Peter Sarf]

.....

So going back to the locos in the original question, in Exeter the 33s allocated to Eastleigh were far easier to get than the ones allocated to Stewarts Lane when much of my time was spent trying to get lines in my little old Platform 5 book. Of the original namers from the 80s 33008, 33025 and 33027 were reasonably common in Exeter whereas 33052 and 33056 weren't.
So where were those Stewarts Lane ones most likely to be?

I cannot help thinking it was Hither Green not Stewarts Lane ?. Anyway, in those days, Strood & Rochester were my local stations and I used to ride my bike over two Hoo Junction - many memories of pairs of 33s slogging away on oil and the Brett Marine hoppers. In the South Eastern the 33s rarely worked passenger trains. It was all EMUs, not even Thumpers (except for Ashford). I had to go to Waterloo for 33/1s and 74s.

 

[Cowley]

I cannot help thinking it was Hither Green not Stewarts Lane ?. Anyway, in those days, Strood & Rochester were my local stations and I used to ride my bike over two Hoo Junction - many memories of pairs of 33s slogging away on oil and the Brett Marine hoppers. In the South Eastern the 33s rarely worked passenger trains. It was all EMUs, not even Thumpers (except for Ashford). I had to go to Waterloo for 33/1s and 74s.

It was Hither Green I think up to the mid 80s but if I recall correctly they were reallocated to Stewarts Lane towards the end of the 80s. Not sure why though, maybe someone else knows?
Eastleigh seemed to keep their allocation around that time and as Randyrippley said they seemed to do a lot of the passenger turns, especially down our way and the Cardiff - Portsmouths etc.

 

[randyrippley]

I cannot help thinking it was Hither Green not Stewarts Lane ?.

You're right. I had a brain-fart

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Some salisbury-waterloo, Salisbury-Reading and salisbury- Gillingham shuttles were worked by 33/1+4TC sets. Obviously making use of the bagpipes made turnarounds a lot easier by eliminating the need to shunt the loco to the other end of the train. when deputising for unavailable 50's or 47's 33/0 were preferred for the longer distance waterloo-exeter services as they would be coupled to the more usual mk2 rakes, but they struggled to keep to time on account of their lower power as much as they made a very credible effort! Anything could turn up however and 37s and 56's were reported. It was also relatively common for a 50 to be paired with a 4TC on Waterloo-Salisbury workings although I understand from postings on the class 50 facebook page that coupling SR EMU stock to conventional locos actually wasnt that easy.

The irony is the route's difficult terrain nature coupled with the frequent start-stop pattern, it was found hydraulic traction performed better and was more reliable than diesel-electric, yet the warships and westerns were replaced by the 50's which being 100mph high speed locos were not the best locos to be allocated to the route, and the locos generator weakness proved to be the downfall of the class as BR literally flogged them to their deaths. neither arguably were the 47's any better performers. The 33's however were excellent performers reliability wise despite the lower power rating. Come introduction of the 159's saw the return of hydraulic traction and despite the slightly lower 90mph top speed the improved acceleration meant the services didnt tread too much on the toes of the 442's!

 

[Blaahh]

Thank you for all the replies, as a number of people said what felt important to a 9 year old, doesnt necessarily lead to preservation! Surprised the NRM didnt think one was worth saving for static display in the National Collection, given their role in the 1981 Royal Wedding and subsequently, but same applies. Maybe 73201/73142 will get that award when GBRf pension it off.

 

[randyrippley]

The irony is the route's difficult terrain nature coupled with the frequent start-stop pattern, it was found hydraulic traction performed better and was more reliable than diesel-electric, yet the warships and westerns were replaced by the 50's which being 100mph high speed locos were not the best locos to be allocated to the route, and the locos generator weakness proved to be the downfall of the class as BR literally flogged them to their deaths. neither arguably were the 47's any better performers. The 33's however were excellent performers reliability wise despite the lower power rating. Come introduction of the 159's saw the return of hydraulic traction and despite the slightly lower 90mph top speed the improved acceleration meant the services didnt tread too much on the toes of the 442's!

Just to get the sequence right, the Warships (only 42s, NEVER 43s) were replaced by the 33s, which were replaced by the 50s, which were replaced/supplemented by 47/7 and a few 47/4.
Westerns were never rostered on Waterloo services, and I've read somewhere that they never ran between Yeovil and Salisbury - some kind of restriction ban? They certainly ran west of Yeovil on Paddington diversions. The only other hydraulics on the route were Hymeks, which could be quickly pinched from other trains at Westbury or Salisbury in the event of a Warship failing (which was frequent.)
I don't have any figures, but the suggestion that the Warships were more reliable than the 50s really should be taken with a pinch of salt. The class 42s on the Waterloo services were a disaster, with almost daily failures - even when a small pool was dedicated to the route with extra maintenance. The 33s were a welcome breath of fresh air in terms of reliability. When they appeared, getting to work on time became a realistic prospect for the first time in years. The class 50s were equally reliable, except maybe in the last year or two of their lives when they were being run down and allowed to die. But that was a support issue - not an inherent problem in the locomotive

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Assuming Broadlands doesnt get frankensteined!