Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[JamesTT]

Question for the NO to DOO folk. Are you that against DOO that you won't travel on a DOO service or will wait for a train with a conductor if you know one is coming?
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Earlier today i had an on board supervisor (OBS) on board a Southern service and he definitely didnt seem to know as much as a Guard. He announced "We are now approaching Clapham Junction. Change here for South West Trains to Reading , Watford Junction , Milton Keynes , Birmingham , Dover , Ashford and Wimbledon and for London Overground services to Stratford , Richmond , Twickenham and London Bridge." Im sure most people on this forum can see everything that is wrong with that announcement. They clearly havent been given enough training. I also spoke to an OBS yesterday who said he used to be an RPI.

That seems very strange. No training would have been given advising of those connections surely? Conspiracy theory alert that sounds like potential sabotage. Disgruntled Guard giving spurious advice re connections

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Question for the NO to DOO folk. Are you that against DOO that you won't travel on a DOO service or will wait for a train with a conductor if you know one is coming?

Not a fair question. At all. There is little overlap between DOO and non-DOO operations. The only choice that may exist is to not travel by train at all, a choice which is not realistic in the areas in which DOO is prevalent.

That seems very strange. No training would have been given advising of those connections surely? Conspiracy theory alert that sounds like potential sabotage. Disgruntled Guard giving spurious advice re connections

I don't generally buy into conspiracy theories. Sounds more like a keen wannabe that's trying too hard.

 

[swt class 450]

i believe all the current OBS's are all ex-RPIs.

Interesting. So are OBS replacing some RPIs as well as Guards?

Question for the NO to DOO folk. Are you that against DOO that you won't travel on a DOO service or will wait for a train with a conductor if you know one is coming?
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That seems very strange. No training would have been given advising of those connections surely? Conspiracy theory alert that sounds like potential sabotage. Disgruntled Guard giving spurious advice re connections

Personally i am very against DOO and support the RMT Union strikes. But i will and do still travel on DOO trains. Many stations in the UK are served 100% by DOO trains so there is no choice. When i travel from Dorking to London i always try to use SWT instead of Southern but i dont go out of my way just to avoid DOO trains.

Personally i think it is just the lack of proper training for OBS. Especially as many of them were previously RPIs so they wouldnt have had knowledge of routes and stations or known details of where to change trains before.

 

[KeithP]

Personally i think it is just the lack of proper training for OBS. Especially as many of them were previously RPIs so they wouldnt have had knowledge of routes and stations or known details of where to change trains before.

I would definitely expect RPIs to know about 'routes and stations'.

 

[NSEFAN]

Shows technology is fallible and not as perfect as some like to make out. Two days ago I was repeatedly losing signal coverage on the GSMR because of the heavy cloud cover.

Why would cloud cover affect GSMR so much? That sounds pretty bad given it's supposed to be a safety-critical system. Even if the clouds are creating some kind of weird reflection of the GSM frequencies, the system should be able to handle it as most of the time you're relying on reflected transmissions anyway, since you can't see the base station!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I would definitely expect RPIs to know about 'routes and stations'.

Don't know about other TOCs but I believe that SWT's guards on their ticket machines can look up timetables and presumably routes as well

 

[AlterEgo]

A member of the public can look up timetables and live train running information on their smartphone so there's absolutely no excuse for rail staff not to know. Sigh.

 

[ComUtoR]

Question for the NO to DOO folk. Are you that against DOO that you won't travel on a DOO service or will wait for a train with a conductor if you know one is coming?

Yes.

A question for you. If you had made it through the process to become a Driver. Would you be more or less cynical about DOO and as a DOO supporter would you vote for or against DOO if you had become a Driver ?

 

[highdyke]

THE poor train service across Sussex is down in part to a dysfunctional relationship between Southern and Network Rail, the new transport secretary has said.

In a full and frank letter to MPs, Chris Grayling said the relationship between the pair was not working well and needed to change.

Mr Grayling also criticised how repairs were carried out along the network and called for a quicker response when things go wrong.

Mr Grayling wrote to Sussex MPs following a meeting earlier this month to update them on “continuing problems” with Southern.

The former justice secretary insisted that driver operated doors were safe and that strike action by conductors and union-organised sick days were “wholly unnecessary”.

He said that having to retrofit £2 billion of new trains with a button that guards could press would cost millions of pounds.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1475...ises_breakdown_in_rail_working_relationship/?

 

[Don King]

Grayling the privatiser of the probation service (how the hell do you privatise that!!) to foreign multinationals.

Man's a complete joke who exists purely to enrich corporates. Wouldn't know the first thing about safe train operation.
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Question for the NO to DOO folk. Are you that against DOO that you won't travel on a DOO service or will wait for a train with a conductor if you know one is coming?

No because I am railway staff and I am not going to jump on the side of the train, assault paaengers or assault the driver, and am qualified to protect the line and deal with rail emergencies should the worst happen.

My 60 year old aunt, younger sister travelling alone, or disabled friend however is a different matter, however unsurprisingly they do not comment on railway forums.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1475...ises_breakdown_in_rail_working_relationship/?

He said that having to retrofit £2 billion of new trains with a button that guards could press would cost millions of pounds.

Is this a reference to the new Class 700 fleet? If so, then I'm pretty sure that they've already got the buttons, as seen here.

 

[AlterEgo]

My 60 year old aunt, younger sister travelling alone, or disabled friend however is a different matter, however unsurprisingly they do not comment on railway forums.

They also probably couldn't tell you what DOO is, why it matters, or which routes have guards.

People will always say "I prefer there to be a guard on the train" but consistent NPS surveys have always shown that people feel no less safe when a route or TOC goes DOO.

 

[Spartacus]

Aside from safety, I'd be interesting to see how many delays and cancellations are caused by a failure of DOO equipment, let alone short forms.

 

[Don King]

They also probably couldn't tell you what DOO is, why it matters, or which routes have guards.

People will always say "I prefer there to be a guard on the train" but consistent NPS surveys have always shown that people feel no less safe when a route or TOC goes DOO.

They know Thameslink is "staffless" and the "Midland Mainline" isn't.

That is good enough for them.

 

[Mintona]

Is this a reference to the new Class 700 fleet? If so, then I'm pretty sure that they've already got the buttons, as seen here.

Shhh. That doesn't fit the narrative.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

High levels of track sickness are being experienced...

What is the currently accepted medication and associated treatment for track sickness? Is it contagious?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is this a reference to the new Class 700 fleet? If so, then I'm pretty sure that they've already got the buttons, as seen here.

Me thinks that panel is going to get very dusty

 

[Carlisle]

Me thinks that panel is going to get very dusty

Are you sure ? I' wouldn't be at all surprised to see the RMT ramp up its campaign on Southern now it can claim almost total victory on Scotrail

 

[ainsworth74]

Are you sure ? I' wouldn't be at all surprised to see the RMT ramp up its campaign on Southern now it can claim almost total victory on Scotrail

DfT aren't going to back down they've got too much skin in the game now.

 

[AlterEgo]

Are you sure ? I' wouldn't be at all surprised to see the RMT ramp up its campaign on Southern now it can claim almost total victory on Scotrail

The RMT cannot and will not win against a fully committed DfT, and that is exactly what they're facing. Still, it'll be fun seeing them try. Glad I don't live in Sussex.

The Scotrail dispute was entirely different in character, not least because it wasn't the DfT involved up there.

 

[Don King]

The RMT cannot and will not win against a fully committed DfT, and that is exactly what they're facing. Still, it'll be fun seeing them try. Glad I don't live in Sussex.

But it is not the RMT alone. There is ASLEF and the TSSA, passenger user groups and disability rights groups, plus supportive MPs. Potty mouthed Wilkinson and his mob will have a far harder fight than they expect.

In fact Christian Wolmar states "It is not just stroppy union officials who are worried about the safety implications but some senior railway managers are fearful that there is likely to be an increase of incidents such as passengers being dragged along by trains or falling on to the tracks. It will not take many of those for the politicians to be under pressure for having pushed through a change that has contributed to injuries or deaths."

 

[AlterEgo]

But it is not the RMT alone. There is ASLEF and the TSSA, passenger user groups and disability rights groups, plus supportive MPs. Potty mouthed Wilkinson and his mob will have a far harder fight than they expect.

In fact Christian Wolmar states "It is not just stroppy union officials who are worried about the safety implications but some senior railway managers are fearful that there is likely to be an increase of incidents such as passengers being dragged along by trains or falling on to the tracks. It will not take many of those for the politicians to be under pressure for having pushed through a change that has contributed to injuries or deaths."

Unfortunately the RMT haven't managed to get passenger or disability groups onside to present a *united* front against the changes. Dissent among non-railstaff is fractured, and will only fracture further thanks to ongoing industrial action.

Wolmar is an astute columnist who often doesn't get the credit he deserves (the article he wrote, which you quoted from, was quite on point), but I am just not certain the opposition is as unified as some might think it is.

If I were in the RMT I would be looking at other action than traditional forms of industrial action.

 

[Robertj21a]

As I've said before, Bob Crow wouldn't have let it get this far. He would have collared some supportive/neutral media and given them hard *facts* about safety. If that didn't convince them he would have arranged for some of them to judge for themselves just how difficult it is to see everyone along the length of a 12-coach train/in poor weather etc.

The RMT could still get a video made up (professionally) to show what the real dangers are - it's not rocket science to suggest ways in which the RMT should be progressing, but it's disheartening to see them with so little initiative of their own.

 

[physics34]

The RMT cannot and will not win against a fully committed DfT, and that is exactly what they're facing. Still, it'll be fun seeing them try. Glad I don't live in Sussex.

The Scotrail dispute was entirely different in character, not least because it wasn't the DfT involved up there.

If Bob Crow was still in charge i reckon they wouldve had a better chance.
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As I've said before, Bob Crow wouldn't have let it get this far. He would have collared some supportive/neutral media and given them hard *facts* about safety. If that didn't convince them he would have arranged for some of them to judge for themselves just how difficult it is to see everyone along the length of a 12-coach train/in poor weather etc.

The RMT could still get a video made up (professionally) to show what the real dangers are - it's not rocket science to suggest ways in which the RMT should be progressing, but it's disheartening to see them with so little initiative of their own.

the RMT have not argued the disabled access argument, they havent challenged Southern more on the "staff sickness" lies/issues, and Mick Cash does not come across convincing.

you get the feeling they are losing.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I think part of the problem is that guards are not doing enough to help themselves. I know there are vocal people out there who will have a go at them but there seem to be even fewer ticket checks on board now.

The guards ought to be out there doing ticket checks, standing up to themselves, giving the facts of Hayes, West Wickham and other trap and drag accidents.


Incidentally not sure which is the right thread but staff shortages seem to be having a greater impact now Southern are reinstating services. There was more criticism of Southern on their online passenger forum today.

 

[BestWestern]

I think part of the problem is that guards are not doing enough to help themselves. I know there are vocal people out there who will have a go at them but there seem to be even fewer ticket checks on board now.

The guards ought to be out there doing ticket checks, standing up to themselves, giving the facts of Hayes, West Wickham and other trap and drag accidents.


Incidentally not sure which is the right thread but staff shortages seem to be having a greater impact now Southern are reinstating services. There was more criticism of Southern on their online passenger forum today.

It probably wouldn't do most Guards' careers a great deal of good to go unleashing a political campaign on their passengers! But as a collective, yes more should have been (and still should be) done.

 

[JamesTT]

In an ideal world all trains should have a guard. But drivers sold out the guards in the 80s bringing about DOO services.
Then the unions didnt agree on the a nationwide policy they just had local agreements which seem to have been pretty much worthless as they are easily overturned.

Controversial but the majority of guards I notice (and this was before the dispute) Do not care about passengers, have an attitude problem, moan a lot about the job. rarely check tickets, rarely make announcements. do not see trains off the platform. Take delight in one of the trains being cancelled, even more so the more people it inconveniences. Sorry but if they had all followed the attitude of the conscientious minority. They would not be in the situation they are now

 

[the sniper]

Controversial but the majority of guards I notice (and this was before the dispute) Do not care about passengers, have an attitude problem, moan a lot about the job. rarely check tickets, rarely make announcements. do not see trains off the platform. Take delight in one of the trains being cancelled, even more so the more people it inconveniences. Sorry but if they had all followed the attitude of the conscientious minority. They would not be in the situation they are now

How and where have you gone about 'noticing' this? To attribute all of this to the majority of Guards is ridiculous.

Regarding the bit I've put in bold, while I don't know anyone who sheds any tears if a trip gets cancelled, as you can't do anything about it and you get to have a longer break (if you're not asked to do something else...), it's pure bull**** to say "even more so the more people it inconveniences"! :roll:

 

[AlterEgo]

In an ideal world all trains should have a guard. But drivers sold out the guards in the 80s bringing about DOO services.
Then the unions didnt agree on the a nationwide policy they just had local agreements which seem to have been pretty much worthless as they are easily overturned.

Controversial but the majority of guards I notice (and this was before the dispute) Do not care about passengers, have an attitude problem, moan a lot about the job. rarely check tickets, rarely make announcements. do not see trains off the platform. Take delight in one of the trains being cancelled, even more so the more people it inconveniences. Sorry but if they had all followed the attitude of the conscientious minority. They would not be in the situation they are now

That can't be allowed to go unchallenged.

To claim a majority of guards have an attitude problem and take delight in cancellations is absurd.

Taking my local line: There are a large number of guards who do less than the minimum required. I've still not seen a revenue check on my train to London since early August, and this is a train with a commercial guard. In fact I can't recall the last time I actually saw the guard. There is no dispute between guards and the TOC on my local line.

The guard is increasingly marginalised and many of them don't help themselves, but it is absolutely wrong to say that the majority are outwardly malevolent and love it when trains get delayed! Eh???

 

[infobleep]

Except none of that would have prevented a further collision because in that case the line was fully protected by the occupation of axle counters. Track circuit clips would make no difference, the area has been resignalled with axle counters.

Potentially there could have been a communication issue IF both drivers were killed or badly injured AND no other railway staff was present with phones and GSM-R on BOTH trains AND there were no mobile signals for anyone else, but again we're back to risk.

The solution here is probably technology again to detect a derailment inside the tunnel (cables, laser, radio etc), thus to trigger an emergency alarm and put all signals back to danger in the area.

Technology is a nice idea but it's not there now. It doesn't exist.

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A member of the public can look up timetables and live train running information on their smartphone so there's absolutely no excuse for rail staff not to know. Sigh.

Providing they have mobile phone reception.

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