Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[HH]

Scottish Government slightly taking sides

Well, seeing as they pay for it, they're quite entitled to an opinion I think!

 

[oldman]

Well, seeing as they pay for it, they're quite entitled to an opinion I think!

Indeed, but they have been neutral up to now - 'it's up to the two sides to sort it out' sort of thing. Now they are appear to be rejecting the RMT's claim it is about safety.

 

[47271]

My point about the BBC piece is that I think the union have been misquoted as saying that the strikes are 'needless', Phil Verster's line has been used twice, I think somebody at the RMT needs to ask the BBC for a correction to be made.

Here's the same story in The Scotsman:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/scotrail-announces-new-strike-action-dates-1-4167319

ScotRail announces new strike action dates

Members of the RMT union were already due to take strike action over the long-running dispute, and extra dates have now been added.


It comes after talks to resolve a row over driver-only trains broke up.

The planned dates are: Sunday 3 July, Sunday 10 July, Monday 11 July, Thursday 14 July, Saturday 16 July and Sunday 17 July.

The dispute concerns driver-only-operation trains, where the driver is asked to close the doors at stations, instead of the on-board conductor.

Unions insist the procedure poses a risk to passenger safety but ScotRail has said it would always schedule a second person on trains.

RMT general secretary Mick Cash said: “Our members on ScotRail stand determined and united in this fight for jobs and safety on Scotland’s rail services.”

He said union members had “no choice” but to move to a new phase of industrial action.

ScotRail’s managing director Phil Verster said he would hold fresh talks with union leaders but his offer was dismissed by the RMT as “classic divide and rule”.

Mr Verster said: “The RMT have announced another round of needless, damaging strikes on the evening before we are due to come together for talks.

“This clearly marks the difference between our two approaches. We want to talk, they want to strike.

“ It is important to remember that this is a strike about who opens and closes doors on our trains. No-one will lose their jobs, no one will see their pay drop or see any change to their terms and conditions.”

Scotrail said it is running around 70 per cent of services on strike days.

It also emphasised how 59 per cent of its customers already travel on a train where the doors are opened and closed by the driver

RMT members have already staged four walkouts.

Routes hit by the stike action include Edinburgh to Aberdeen, Glasgow Central to Edinburgh, Aberdeen to Inverness and Glasgow Queen Street to Oban. A number of other routes are cancelled or reduced. Replacement bus services will operate some of the routes.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

What's the average monthly commission earned by a Conductor?

 

[Matt Taylor]

I don't know about Scotrail but here in the south it varies hugely depending on what line of the roster you are doing and what depot you're at. In addition there are so many factors to consider such as possible Avantix failures on usually busy commuter services, military warrants when a ship docks at Portsmouth (quite rare these days), train cancellations resulting in no sales, ticket office and/or TVM availablility.

Despite it being the height of summer my takings this month are less than a quarter of what I took in November last year which would normally be a quiet month despite being on a similar shift pattern. There really isn't an average.

 

[ComUtoR]

What's the average monthly commission earned by a Conductor?

Isn't the goal to have no commission and that every passenger has a ticket before they board ?

 

[Sadsmileyface]

I don't know about Scotrail but here in the south it varies hugely depending on what line of the roster you are doing and what depot you're at. In addition there are so many factors to consider such as possible Avantix failures on usually busy commuter services, military warrants when a ship docks at Portsmouth (quite rare these days), train cancellations resulting in no sales, ticket office and/or TVM availablility.



Despite it being the height of summer my takings this month are less than a quarter of what I took in November last year which would normally be a quiet month despite being on a similar shift pattern. There really isn't an average.

So like £200 a month or something?

 

[tsr]

So like £200 a month or something?

At several Southern depots, a good proportion of people will comfortably exceed that every month, provided they don't have lots of annual leave or something, but at a few you'd never do that. This is largely due to the ticket purchasing facilities and general culture (buying on board or not) on different combinations of routes. London depots typically take less.

 

[Flamingo]

So like £200 a month or something?

I wish!

 

[bengley]

Southern guards are getting their travel and parking passes back now.

 

[Haig paxton]

What's the average monthly commission earned by a Conductor?

Depends on the depot but GLC Guards earn around £200 per pay (13 pays per year)

 

[Carlisle]

Indeed, but they have been neutral up to now - 'it's up to the two sides to sort it out' sort of thing. Now they are appear to be rejecting the RMT's claim it is about safety.

Maybe a fair proportion are thinking they'd had all these arguments 5 years ago during the Bathgate dispute and wondering as circumstances haven't really changed much why its really necessary to repeat them all again

 

[TheEdge]

I wish!

Come to Anglia. £200 would be a poor month, maybe even an a/l month. £300-400 is a normal/good month for us.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

Come to Anglia. £200 would be a poor month, maybe even an a/l month. £300-400 is a normal/good month for us.

It sounds as if it must really vary from ToC to ToC.

 

[Flamingo]

Come to Anglia. £200 would be a poor month, maybe even an a/l month. £300-400 is a normal/good month for us.

£80-100 is considered a good month in our depot. I'm considered a ticket monster, I'll rarely top £150.

 

[bnm]

GTR Southern are introducing an emergency timetable tomorrow, cutting up to 350 services a day, in response to the on-going dispute and high levels of staff sickness.

The DfT have been informed of the changes, as the operator is obliged to do, recognising there is no other solution, but have said GTR's decision to amend the timetable doesn't amount to the Govt. giving permission.

The RMT denies that the high levels of staff sickness amount to unofficial strike action. GTR think otherwise.

 

[maniacmartin]

From BBC News

Amended Southern rail timetable 'loses 350 trains a day'

The RMT dispute relates to driver-only operated trains and a change in conductors' roles.

Southern Rail is to axe 350 services a day under an amended timetable drawn up in response to ongoing disruption, a union has claimed.

The RMT said it was given the figure at a meeting with parent firm Govia Thameslink (GTR). GTR said its amended timetable would be a temporary measure until staffing returned to normal.

The government said the current situation was unacceptable and it was aware changes were being considered.

Industrial action by RMT members and high levels of staff sickness have contributed to disruption of Southern services from the south coast into London,
Union general secretary Mick Cash said the government had given GTR permission to introduce the emergency timetable.

He said: "This latest savage attack on passenger services by GTR is nothing to do with staff sickness and everything to do with gross mismanagement of this franchise and the failure to employ enough guards and drivers to fill the current rosters and diagrams.

"The continuing attempt to blame the frontline workforce for this crisis is a cynical and cowardly ploy that will not wash with the travelling public."

'Doesn't amount to permission'

A GTR spokesman said: "The timetable recognises that the present level of service has not been acceptable and will aim to give passengers a more predictable service they can plan around."

Southern rail managers faced passengers at a public meeting in Hove on Saturday

A spokesman for the Department for Transport said: "We are clear that GTR passengers are not getting the service they deserve and the current situation is unacceptable.

"We are aware that GTR is considering some changes in order to strengthen their timetable in the face of ongoing disruption, so as many services as possible can run.
"When this happens, operators are contractually obliged to inform us in advance, but these decisions are taken only when there is no other solution, and this does not amount to the government giving permission."

The dispute is over the introduction of driver-only operated trains and a change in conductors' roles.

The RMT union has denied claims high levels of staff sickness is unofficial industrial action.

Southern has said the new timetable will be published on Tuesday.

 

[Domh245]

GTR said its amended timetable would be a temporary measure until staffing returned to normal.

So, that'll be never then!

 

[tony6499]

I wonder how temporary this temporary timetable will be ? Will cause more problems if it lasts till the next timetable change

 

[Deepgreen]

The farce continues, nay, grows. Southern's web site home page also warns of "hot weather" today. Forecast temperatures are only around 20C at best - when did that become "hot"?! Trains cancelled owing to mild weather!

 

[tsr]

The farce continues, nay, grows. Southern's web site home page also warns of "hot weather" today. Forecast temperatures are only around 20C at best - when did that become "hot"?! Trains cancelled owing to mild weather!

There are actually heat-related speed restrictions on the East Grinstead line too! I suspect this may be more to do with track maintenance over the weekend meaning the line is more vulnerable to damage. 20mph ESR between Lingfield and Hurst Green Junction.

 

[Steveoh]

So where does all this leave the dispute? It seems to have been going along for quite some time now and Southern are not budging and are clearly being backed by the DfT / government. It's just a button after all. Meanwhile presumably the redundancies (sorry there aren't any are there Southern?) will be happening and the transfer to OBS role will continue. Is it all just going to fizzle out? Are there any more strike days coming up? As a passenger I can't help but feel that the RMT are losing this and I don't want them to.

 

[infobleep]

There was a public meeting the other day in Hove. Held in a local church and organised by Southern I believe. I think the RMT and ASLEF should hold their own public meeting.

After all before elections, local hustings are arranged or they have different potential MPs appear before the public on separate days. That way the unions can also put their side of the argument to the public and answer questions.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Deepgreen]

There are actually heat-related speed restrictions on the East Grinstead line too! I suspect this may be more to do with track maintenance over the weekend meaning the line is more vulnerable to damage. 20mph ESR between Lingfield and Hurst Green Junction.

Extraordinary! Met Office site records 19/20C in the East Grinstead area at 1300, with only intermittent sunshine and a strong breeze. Very hard to see how the track is going to heat up to anything like a concerning temperature. Anyway, I'm conscious I've taken us off-topic.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think the lack of staff availability is having a greater impact than the actual strike days. I don't believe the Union can be blamed for such widespread cancellations when they aren't actually on strike. This is a prime example of what happens when goodwill has been eroded and the reliance on staff to work overtime is plain to see.

From the day I joined there has been a lack of staffing. Unless the TOC is held to task over it nothing will change.

 

[al78]

Extraordinary! Met Office site records 19/20C in the East Grinstead area at 1300, with only intermittent sunshine and a strong breeze. Very hard to see how the track is going to heat up to anything like a concerning temperature. Anyway, I'm conscious I've taken us off-topic.

19-20C is actually a little below average for max daytime temperatures in SE England, plus it is cloudy so not much direct solar heating of the tracks. Claiming heat related problems on a day like today is absurd.

 

[Deepgreen]

19-20C is actually a little below average for max daytime temperatures in SE England, plus it is cloudy so not much direct solar heating of the tracks. Claiming heat related problems on a day like today is absurd.

Indeed! High levels of track sickness are being experienced...

 

[tsr]

Extraordinary! Met Office site records 19/20C in the East Grinstead area at 1300, with only intermittent sunshine and a strong breeze. Very hard to see how the track is going to heat up to anything like a concerning temperature. Anyway, I'm conscious I've taken us off-topic.

I know what you mean - all I can say is that a fairly lengthy 20mph restriction over what is basically a straight section of plain-line double track will not be placed without a good reason, and I can only assume that something is majorly preventing the track safely expanding at all, meaning even normal daytime temperatures are a hazard. Possibly there was a miscalculation of something during the night-time parts of the weekend possessions, or a problem with getting sufficient ballast in position to cope with normal seasonal variations, as night-time temperatures have been probably been a few degrees lower than usual on this section of the route, so maybe something was missed. As I say, I reckon this must be more about the follow-up from engineering work than due to an especially high level of heat. Perhaps Tyrell et al are struggling to provide an appropriate generic reason for delay within the CIS and other information systems. I'm currently at home, not that many miles away, and the breeze through the window is positively fresh, if not cool!

Yes, we're now off-topic... unless there are major developments I shall leave this one here!

 

[quantinghome]

So where does all this leave the dispute? It seems to have been going along for quite some time now and Southern are not budging and are clearly being backed by the DfT / government. It's just a button after all. Meanwhile presumably the redundancies (sorry there aren't any are there Southern?) will be happening and the transfer to OBS role will continue. Is it all just going to fizzle out? Are there any more strike days coming up? As a passenger I can't help but feel that the RMT are losing this and I don't want them to.

I have no particular knowledge in this area, but surely the 1st question of strike action should be: can we win? Backing a lost cause will invariably weaken a union's power in the long run, as seen in the 80s Miners and Print workers strikes. In this case, DOO has been used on national rail for over 30 years (longer on the underground) and is in extensive use all over country. The horse has bolted and Canute has got his feet wet.

I would understand the RMT strategy if it was effectively a rearguard action aimed to delay the ongoing roll-out of DOO for as long as possible. However, if at all possible you've got to choose your field of battle. Where can you put up a strong fight; and where is a holding action more appropriate? Southern seems to me to be ill-chosen ground, given the extensive use of DOO in the area already. If all the effort is invested here, then any failure will hasten the roll-out over the whole network.

 

[Flamingo]

Indeed! High levels of track sickness are being experienced...

Very good Now where's that Like button?