Derailment near Watford Junction (16 September 2016)

[Taunton]

Google Earth, presumably a recent image, seems to show that there had been a recent slip just there before the vegetation clearance had taken place. That looks more like a slip than clearance.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6882017,-0.426319,109m/data=!3m1!1e3

Also there appears to be major construction work immediately at the top of the bank, which may have affected the ground water table.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Could we be looking at a SPAD then if the train hit another train

Read the sentence you've quoted :roll::roll:

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No different to when going down a slope from a train to a platform really is ti?

I guess so, I was more thinking of the differing door widths and positions between a 350 and 221, rather than height differences.

 

[Trog]

Google Earth, presumably a recent image, seems to show that there had been a recent slip just there before the vegetation clearance had taken place. That looks more like a slip than clearance.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6882017,-0.426319,109m/data=!3m1!1e3

Also there appears to be major construction work immediately at the top of the bank, which may have affected the ground water table.

What you think is a slip is a brick or stone built spill way, that has been there for well over thirty years to my certain knowledge. The major construction work looks like a film set to me, as there is not much demand for castle gateways these days, so probably largely built out of plywood.

 

[reddragon]

These trains are stressed box units. An end impact (tractor collision) is an easy fix. That is a cab unit.

Think Titanic, DP2 and early class 47 withdrawals, with long side scrapes.

If the side scrape is superficial or localised then fine, if its structural or full length then its scrap!

The 455 that was flattened by a skip lorry dropping on it required a spare class 210 carriage, which despite being a rusting wreck with windows in the wrong places was structurally intact and better than a shiny clean 455 coach with a structural failure hole.

You could almost bet that 233+264 = 1 unit, but we shall see what gets dragged out!

 

[DarloRich]

the damaged unit has been dragged to Northampton EMUD - the damage did not look as bad as feared away form the front corner. There was a long scrape down the side but otherwise it looked fine as was rolling along happily

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

That was my thinking too- don't they use the portable ramps to "bridge" between the two trains? Possibly not so easy in a tunnel, nor when the two trains are formed of such different stock though.

A few winters back a 150 became entangled in an ice-induced dewirement south of Preston. The rescue unit was a 221 and I believe a wheelchair ramp was used to form a bridge between the two. Just to show that this situation doesn't need much compatability between train types, the difficulties arise from one train being off the rails and therefore not level.

I notice that posters seem concerned re replacement stock and suggesting perhaps this, and perhaps that, even converting third rail stock from the south. LM will just soldier on with what 350s and 319s are available. After all, there is flexibility in a fleet and there are more units in a fleet than diagrams.

Quite so. And as has been said 319s are coming off lease from GTR(TL) at a steady trickle. According to the abrail site of the 319s still to reach Northern there are currently 7 at Wolverton and 5 more still with TL. Quite conceivable that a proportion of these might be made available to LM for a spell.

 

[Clip]

I guess so, I was more thinking of the differing door widths and positions between a 350 and 221, rather than height differences.

Doors on 350 are double leaf doors arent they? To be honest I couldnt tell you but im sure the ramp frmo the 221 will be wide enough for a ramp across and thus fit the other doors.

 

[reddragon]

The pictures on the news show 233 to only have a corner strike, so lucky.

Hope the same for 264, but passenger state many broken windows

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doors on 350 are double leaf doors arent they? To be honest I couldnt tell you but im sure the ramp frmo the 221 will be wide enough for a ramp across and thus fit the other doors.

The issue is more that the two damaged units appeared to be wedged alongside one another (there's a video on the LM site showing this).

 

[DarloRich]

The issue is more that the two damaged units appeared to be wedged alongside one another (there's a video on the LM site showing this).

they unwedged them as quite quickly as 350264 went north past me at Bletchley at 1650 this afternoon.

 

[transmanche]

just out of interest does anyone know if the lul emergency response unit attended. They often do if incidents occur in London

Leavesden (the area of the incident) is a fair way outside London, although I'm sure they wold have attended if requested.
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The major construction work looks like a film set to me, as there is not much demand for castle gateways these days, so probably largely built out of plywood.

Yes, the Warner Bros Studio and Harry Potter tour thing is slap-bang next door.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

LUL response teams are a great bunch - they gave sterling assistance at Watford in 1996 , and continue to do so when asked.

 

[dubscottie]

I would think any damaged vehicles are going to be out of action for a long time.

Extrusions are almost impossible to repair so I would think new sections would need to be welded in.

Lucky that it was not a repeat of the crash Ais Gill in 1995.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

For the record - there was a similar mishap here in 1940 ...
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For the record - there was a similar mishap here in 1940 ...

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/landslide-blocks-railway

 

[SpacePhoenix]

233 doesn't look to simple to repair:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-derailed-LANDSLIDE-clips-oncoming-train.html (2nd picture)

Is the cab doorway part of the cab assembly or part of the main body assembly?

 

[Clip]

The issue is more that the two damaged units appeared to be wedged alongside one another (there's a video on the LM site showing this).

Im pretty sure they have more than one door on a train

 

[oversteer]

From that Daily Mail link, "Benedict Jnr" was not on a 350 was he?

 

[Nippy]

they unwedged them as quite quickly as 350264 went north past me at Bletchley at 1650 this afternoon.

Thought 264 was still in the tunnel awaiting re-railing? 233 left the tunnel and was taken by another unit North.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not surprisingly, the disruption will carry on through the weekend.
Basically, Tring stoppers are cancelled with other LM services calling additionally to compensate.
Virgin are thinning out services by removing one train an hour to/from Birmingham and Manchester, so that LM can use the Fast.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.aspx

 

[Bletchleyite]

Im pretty sure they have more than one door on a train

But if the two units are right next to each other, as it appears they are (were, they have now been removed I believe), there is no scope to bring a third unit alongside.
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Not surprisingly, the disruption will carry on through the weekend.
Basically, Tring stoppers are cancelled with other LM services calling additionally to compensate.
Virgin are thinning out services by removing one train an hour to/from Birmingham and Manchester, so that LM can use the Fast.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.aspx

Standard emergency timetable... I should make a note of which VTs get cancelled so as to avoid booking on one

 

[causton]

Not surprisingly, the disruption will carry on through the weekend.
Basically, Tring stoppers are cancelled with other LM services calling additionally to compensate.
Virgin are thinning out services by removing one train an hour to/from Birmingham and Manchester, so that LM can use the Fast.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/today.aspx

The real question is will Southern be running... I suspect not but they have not said anything one way or another, perhaps they forgot they run on the West Coast Main Line now!

I was at Kings Langley and Hemel Hempstead helping the passengers off the Voyager, but nothing really interesting that has not already been said, I didn't even get to see any of the event site apart from looking at pictures on the Daily Mail and Sky News!

 

[DarloRich]

Thought 264 was still in the tunnel awaiting re-railing? 233 left the tunnel and was taken by another unit North.

you are right - 233 went past me

 

[Bletchleyite]

The real question is will Southern be running... I suspect not but they have not said anything one way or another, perhaps they forgot they run on the West Coast Main Line now!

They often manage that. The LM site thinks they will be, but they weren't earlier.

I was at Kings Langley and Hemel Hempstead helping the passengers off the Voyager, but nothing really interesting that has not already been said, I didn't even get to see any of the event site apart from looking at pictures on the Daily Mail and Sky News!

Had it been out in the open I imagine it'd have been all over Twitter, quite possibly before the second unit even hit. Surprised nobody has posted anything in retrospect; perhps the emergency services asked them not to.

Edit: there is one photo on there from on board, if you search for "derailed" you find it.

 

[causton]

Had it been out in the open I imagine it'd have been all over Twitter, quite possibly before the second unit even hit. Surprised nobody has posted anything in retrospect; perhps the emergency services asked them not to.

Edit: there is one photo on there from on board, if you search for "derailed" you find it.

I think it was mostly that as it was in the tunnel, only a few people had very limited phone signal so could not post anything immediately... and by the time they had got out they had been on the train for that long, a lot of them just wanted to go back home!

 

[philthetube]

Using a stretcher without full imobilisation is incredibly dangerous so it'll be 'fun' being strapped in. Will they take the wheelchair out at the same time? If not, how will the wheelchair user get home and when would they get the chair back. If they kept mine I'd be furious as not only is it how I get about, to get a replacement takes 6-8 weeks and it costs over £3000. They'd have to get you into something appropriate within about 20 minutes or the risk for doing damage in areas with poor sensation becomes fairly high. Injuring an previously uninjured person as the result of the evacuation method would result in significant legal claims. Also, I don't know if anyone on here has been moved in those sort of circumstances on a stretcher? It makes you feel incredibly vulnerable as should anything happen you've got no way to protect yourself. A number of people would find it incredibly distressing. I've done it in training scenarios and it was pretty unpleasant then.

once protection is in place and the site is safe then decisions would be made in the best interests of the passenger.

Stupid things like trying to lift a passenger of on an unsecured stretcher, or in a wheelchair would not be attempted unless there was an immediate emergency, such as fire.

Equally obviously you would not take a wheelchair passenger off without a chair and then leave them lying on the floor at the station. If there are people available to move a stretcher then they will be able to cope with moving a chair as well, it was only a transfer to another train, not a five mile hike down the track. I would expect luggage to have been taken as well.

 

[Richard_B]

I think it is safe to say that the railway and its passengers got incredibly lucky today. It seem that if even just one thing had gone slightly differently this accident would have been far far worse.

A train on one set of rails hit another train that should have been of a different set of rails and there were no serious injuries. Cannot agree enough how much luck has been used up today.

 

[notverydeep]

But if the two units are right next to each other, as it appears they are (were, they have now been removed I believe), there is no scope to bring a third unit along side

The daily mail photos show that, as per the London Midland timetable, the southbound train was 8 cars led by 264, with another unidentified unit trailing. Meanwhile 233, working the northbound train on its own - confirmed by photos of both ends where it came to a stand more or less exactly alongside 264.

This suggests to me (though this is clearly speculation) that 233's passengers might have been transferred to 264 first. They could then have been walked through to the unidentified unit and the Voyagers brought alongside the rearmost vehicle of this trailing unit, as this would have been well clear of 233, at which point all the passengers from both could br transferred to the front car of the Voyagers (and then fill up the 5 cars at the south end of that train).

The alternative is that ladders were used from all 3 units and the Voyagers stopped short of both trains and passengers walked a short distance between on the track.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

More crass reporting of the incident (eg the Mail).
Apparently it was a "slow tunnel", and it was on "the busiest rail line in Europe".
They seem to be mashing up railway parlance with Wiki entries on the WCML.

 

[Dai Corner]

More crass reporting of the incident (eg the Mail).
Apparently it was a "slow tunnel", and it was on "the busiest rail line in Europe".
They seem to be mashing up railway parlance with Wiki entries on the WCML.

Yes. We on this forum realise it's crass because we know about railways. I always assume that much/most/all reporting outside the specialist journals is equally crass, whatever the subject.