Derailment near Watford Junction (16 September 2016)

[61653 HTAFC]

Do they not have detraining boards in. Their emergency cupboards?

That was my thinking too- don't they use the portable ramps to "bridge" between the two trains? Possibly not so easy in a tunnel, nor when the two trains are formed of such different stock though.

 

[njr001]

Watford Observer has image from within tunnel showing 350 264 with considerable damage and 350 233 alongside
http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/14747514.Hundreds_rescued_and_four_injured_after_train_derails_near_Watford_Junction/

 

[Deepgreen]

Indeed. A train derailing at a tunnel mouth and another train hitting it could have ended up as a catastrophic event. We could have been looking at a real disaster here.

It appears from the picture that cutting stabilisation works are underway, and that the associated netting has yet to reach the tunnel mouth, where the chalk slip occurred. Unfortunate timing. The only slight benefit of a derailment at/in a tunnel is that there is perhaps less likelihood of the train turning over, at least towards the tunnel wall. Obviously, though, this is counteracted by the access difficulty.

 

[oversteer]

Plenty of photos on the Watford Observer site now
http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/st...in_derails_near_Watford_Junction/?ref=mr&lp=1

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Wow, looks like 350 264's not going to be out and about again any time soon!

Looking at that, it's very good news indeed that it seems like there are no serious injuries.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will 264 be needing the whole of the cab structure replaced or just that side?

If 264 is going to be out of action for a long time, what will be the most likely replacement, borrowing a 360 from Heathrow Connect or if SWTs could spare one, borrow a 450 from SWT and equip it for AC or borrow a 350 from TPE?

 

[Crossover]

A very unfortunate but equally fortunate sequence of events and lucky no-one was seriously injured. As mentioned already, the rescue of passengers with the 10 car Voyager looks to have been very skillfully enacted and it sounds like there has been praise for the staff throughout, which is good to hear

Will 264 be needing the whole of the cab structure replaced or just that side?

If 264 is going to be out of action for a long time, what will be the most likely replacement, borrowing a 360 from Heathrow Connect or if SWTs could spare one, borrow a 450 from SWT and equip it for AC or borrow a 350 from TPE?

I think Desiros are modular, so it will probably be a case of (in simple terms) unbolting the damaged cab front and replacing with a new one. Obviously there will be a bit more to it than that. Very much doubt they would take on a 360 in the meantime and a 450 is almost certainly out of the question due to the work it would need to bring it to AC standard. Similarly I would imagine utilisation of the TPE fleet is fairly high. I would imagine the likely "replacement" will be short forming of some services

 

[reddragon]

From that picture it can be deduced that 350 264 scraped along the full length of 350 233.

The Watford paper also shows another unit behind 350 233 (picture taken out of its cab window)

So 2 units badly damaged (this level of damage may be a write off of at least one unit here) and possible 2 others with less damage.

 

[Deepgreen]

Wow, looks like 350 264's not going to be out and about again any time soon!

Looking at that, it's very good news indeed that it seems like there are no serious injuries.

SWT have semi-permanently coupled two pairs (I think) of 450s together to ensure that their damaged cabs remain out of use). Although nowhere near as bad as this appears to be, perhaps that may happen here too if any of the units involved are lightly damaged enough.

 

[D365]

If 264 is going to be out of action for a long time, what will be the most likely replacement, borrowing a 360 from Heathrow Connect or if SWTs could spare one, borrow a 450 from SWT and equip it for AC or borrow a 350 from TPE?

or... perhaps a 'hybrid' unit could be formed with the good driving cars from each.

Though I think a more pressing matter is to actually remove the stricken units from the tunnel.

So 2 units badly damaged (this level of damage may be a write off of at least one unit here) and possible 2 others with less damage.

How do you reckon? I've seen units with worse damage that have been returned to service.

 

[fandroid]

A civil engineer's pedantic observation, but one which should encourage a bit of clarity. The sides of a cutting are absolutely not 'embankments'. An embankment is the opposite of a cutting, ie it's where excavated material has been placed to raise the track above original ground level.

That netting doesn't look as if it is serious ground stabilisation, but of course it could be over the top of some proper engineering. The netting is there to stop loose rocks falling and hitting trains/track-workers. It would never stop the sort of collapse of large amounts of wet material that appeared to happen last night.

Although very steep-sided cuttings through chalk are not uncommon, they do suffer from weathering, and some really heavy civil engineering is possibly the only way to guarantee no repeats.

 

[fgwrich]

Will 264 be needing the whole of the cab structure replaced or just that side?

If 264 is going to be out of action for a long time, what will be the most likely replacement, borrowing a 360 from Heathrow Connect or if SWTs could spare one, borrow a 450 from SWT and equip it for AC or borrow a 350 from TPE?

Highly highly unlikely to borrow a 450! Not least because of the fact they would have to install the panto and associated equipment. TPE 350 probably more likely if TPE can spare one. Not sure about borrowing a 360 - wasn't there an issue with them not being equipped with TPWS or something because of their Padd-Heathrow only duties?

 

[D365]

TPE 350 probably more likely if TPE can spare one.

Nope, they're already over-utilised as it is.

Not sure about borrowing a 360 - wasn't there an issue with them not being equipped with TPWS or something because of their Padd-Heathrow only duties?

The Class 332s which are fitted with GW-ATP only, the 360s were mostly rebuilt from the Class 350/0 prototype units and are therefore fully equipped.

 

[Trog]

If you look at the picture you will note that there are no trees and no undergrowth whatsover. This is because Network Rail have spent the summer cutting down all line-side growth to ground level, from at least Berkhamsted to the Watford tunnels.
You can possible just make out the galvanised netting that has been fixed to the face of the steep embankment to stop falling debris.
Those who are aware of the effects of a sudden reduction in the water uptake / retention of slopes might say that the slip was an accident waiting to happen ...

Those with an engineering background might disagree, and think the trees should have been got rid of years ago. The problem appears to be that the surface soil has been washed off the solid chalk below, by water flowing down the bank. The reason that will have happened is that the previous tree cover killed off all the grass etc that held the top surface of the soil together. If the trees had been left the water would have just run beneath then still taking the loose soil, and perhaps even the trees with it.

 

[DarloRich]

LM will surely just run short formed and try and squeeze more life out of thier 319's - unless they press the Marston Vale chuggers into mainline use

 

[OneOffDave]

I'd imagine it might well be, because it's diesel and the wires may be isolated - LM wouldn't have any diesel units nearby other than the two for the Marston Vale which would be inadequate for a busy commuter train. It's also running wrong road.

Ladder down to track, along the track, ladder back up, I'd expect.

That would have been fun trying to evacuate any wheelchair users like that. And if you had to move them along the cess it'd be almost impossible

 

[fgwrich]

Nope, they're already over-utilised as it is.



The Class 332s which are fitted with GW-ATP only, the 360s were mostly rebuilt from the Class 350/0 prototype units and are therefore fully equipped.

Fair enough, I thought something was bought up about the class when the talk of hiring them to c2c was on the cards.

Without turning into too much of a bashing comment, and I'm glad staff and passengers alike are safe, it shows you how well constructed the Siemens built rolling stock is. I dread to think how potentially more damage there could have been if an Electrostar was involvied - and I say that as the majority of the *star construction uses a Fibreglass skin.

 

[Crossover]

SWT have semi-permanently coupled two pairs (I think) of 450s together to ensure that their damaged cabs remain out of use). Although nowhere near as bad as this appears to be, perhaps that may happen here too if any of the units involved are lightly damaged enough.

I recall seeing that but I think it was mainly smashed windows on it rather than very substantial damage. The coupler on 264 will be stuffed for a start, aside from anything else!

 

[ainsworth74]

I think it is safe to say that the railway and its passengers got incredibly lucky today. It seem that if even just one thing had gone slightly differently this accident would have been far far worse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would have been fun trying to evacuate any wheelchair users like that. And if you had to move them along the cess it'd be almost impossible

I would imagine the emergency services, specifically the fire service, would be called in to assist using techniques they use to lift disabled people out of burning buildings, had that been required.

However, LM commuter services tend by and large to be filled with able-bodied middle-aged blokes with nothing more than a laptop bag as luggage; I can't remember the last time I saw a wheelchair user on one, for example. So I suspect they didn't actually encounter that problem in the first place.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it is safe to say that the railway and its passengers got incredibly lucky today. It seem that if even just one thing had gone slightly differently this accident would have been far far worse.

Indeed so, particularly with it having clouted another train and got away with doing so (it may even have stopped the derailed train ending up out of line and properly fouling the opposite track). Great Heck showed exactly how badly a similar accident (albeit with a different cause) could go.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Though I think a more pressing matter is to actually remove the stricken units from the tunnel.

Think they said on the news that they're going to jack it up and slide it back. After that probably depends on damage to stuff like brake lines

 

[Clip]

That was my thinking too- don't they use the portable ramps to "bridge" between the two trains? Possibly not so easy in a tunnel, nor when the two trains are formed of such different stock though.

No different to when going down a slope from a train to a platform really is ti?

 

[theageofthetra]

That would have been fun trying to evacuate any wheelchair users like that. And if you had to move them along the cess it'd be almost impossible

Which makes the situation on many DOO trains where the driver has no idea how many wheelchair users are on board or their destination even more ludicrous. In fact I struggle to think of any other mode of public transport where the person driving it and in charge of it has no idea if he has passengers with no means of escape unassisted.

 

[All Line Rover]

18:46 (Preston), 18:57 (Manchester), 19:00 (Manchester) and 19:03 (Birmingham) off-peak services have been cancelled, according to JourneyCheck. VTWC website says off-peak restrictions have been lifted but NRE makes no mention of this.

 

[Varney]

From that picture it can be deduced that 350 264 scraped along the full length of 350 233.

The Watford paper also shows another unit behind 350 233 (picture taken out of its cab window)

So 2 units badly damaged (this level of damage may be a write off of at least one unit here) and possible 2 others with less damage.

To me it looks like 264 is the derailed unit which is fouling the adjacent line and the other train has scraped along side it causing the damage to the cab.

 

[AlterEgo]

Looking at the BBC images is there defoliage/deforestation work taking place above that location presently?

Looks like it. A large portion of the south WCML has already been done.

 

[philthetube]

That would have been fun trying to evacuate any wheelchair users like that. And if you had to move them along the cess it'd be almost impossible

you would not attempt to move people in a wheelchair, a stretcher and the emergency services would be used if needed,

just out of interest does anyone know if the lul emergency response unit attended. They often do if incidents occur in London

 

[LeylandLen]

To me it looks like 264 is the derailed unit which is fouling the adjacent line and the other train has scraped along side it causing the damage to the cab.

Given that both trains scheduled to call at Watford Junction, what speed would the trains have been doing ? , one accelerating , the other slowing down .

 

[OneOffDave]

you would not attempt to move people in a wheelchair, a stretcher and the emergency services would be used if needed,

just out of interest does anyone know if the lul emergency response unit attended. They often do if incidents occur in London

Using a stretcher without full imobilisation is incredibly dangerous so it'll be 'fun' being strapped in. Will they take the wheelchair out at the same time? If not, how will the wheelchair user get home and when would they get the chair back. If they kept mine I'd be furious as not only is it how I get about, to get a replacement takes 6-8 weeks and it costs over £3000. They'd have to get you into something appropriate within about 20 minutes or the risk for doing damage in areas with poor sensation becomes fairly high. Injuring an previously uninjured person as the result of the evacuation method would result in significant legal claims. Also, I don't know if anyone on here has been moved in those sort of circumstances on a stretcher? It makes you feel incredibly vulnerable as should anything happen you've got no way to protect yourself. A number of people would find it incredibly distressing. I've done it in training scenarios and it was pretty unpleasant then.

 

[PHILIPE]

I notice that posters seem concerned re replacement stock and suggesting perhaps this, and perhaps that, even converting third rail stock from the south. LM will just soldier on with what 350s and 319s are available. After all, there is flexibility in a fleet and there are more units in a fleet than diagrams.