Disposal Of IC225s

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

Assuming that Virgin takes delivery of it's new class 800s / 801s on time in December 2018 can we expect to see the first IC225s going for scrap in early 2019?

From what I understand Virgin would like to retain half a dozen sets for relief work etc so can we expect them to retain the trains with the lowest mileage / best condition?

Your thoughts would be very welcome!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

 

[J-2739]

They're also going to keep some for a limited express jouney to Edinburgh (goes through).

 

[RichmondCommu]

They're also going to keep some for a limited express jouney to Edinburgh (goes through).

Would they not be the same trains (i.e. no more than half a dozen?)

 

[WatcherZero]

I understand they were going to make a decision closer to the time over how much to keep and what additional services would be viable to operate.

 

[Flying Snail]

G'day everyone,

Assuming that Virgin takes delivery of it's new class 800s / 801s on time in December 2018 can we expect to see the first IC225s going for scrap in early 2019?

I doubt that will happen.

What possible use they may have is unclear at present; open access, MML, other electrified lines with 90/91/new build electric or even diesel P-P. They could be broken up into shorter sets with Mk3 DVTs added if needed.

Of course it's possible they won't find a home but I doubt the ROSCO will be in a hurry to scrap them, look at some of the other stuff that has gone into storage for expended periods.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I understand they were going to make a decision closer to the time over how much to keep and what additional services would be viable to operate.

I'm assuming that won't amount to much or else they would just order more trains from Hitachi? Which will surely have to be the medium to long term solution?

Assuming that the ECML is pretty much full up (especially south of Peterborough) surely they would only be looking to save around six trains from the scrap yard?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I doubt that will happen.

What possible use they may have is unclear at present; open access, MML, other electrified lines with 90/91/new build electric or even diesel P-P. They could be broken up into shorter sets with Mk3 DVTs added if needed.

Why would IC225s be chosen over EMU's for the MML? Surely if there was a future for the IC225s they would have gone to the Norwich route?

 

[The Ham]

How about LM taking them to run the longer distance services, such as London to Crewe?

A shortened rake (say loco, 6 coaches and DVT) should be able to keep to the timings of an 110mph EMU given the relatively few stations it will serve, whilst giving a noticeable increase in capacity.

 

[BestWestern]

They're replacing withdrawn 373s on Eurostar, aren't they?!

 

[Tracked]

They're replacing withdrawn 373s on Eurostar, aren't they?!

They're being used to haul the 442's to & from Manchester airport ... or something ...

Wasn't the intention once to use them for freight when not hauling passenger services? 86 replacement maybe?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Does AGA's London-Norwich route need any extra capacity?

 

[Rich McLean]

Does AGA's London-Norwich route need any extra capacity?

Being Covered by brand new stock

 

[168lover]

They're being used to haul the 442's to & from Manchester airport ... or something ...

Wasn't the intention once to use them for freight when not hauling passenger services? 86 replacement maybe?

No they're having 3rd rail shoes fitted so that they can haul 442sinto Brighton on Cross Country services silly

 

[The Planner]

How about LM taking them to run the longer distance services, such as London to Crewe?

A shortened rake (say loco, 6 coaches and DVT) should be able to keep to the timings of an 110mph EMU given the relatively few stations it will serve, whilst giving a noticeable increase in capacity.

Doubt it could ever match the dwell times.

 

[jopsuk]

I'm still surprised the IEP contract hasn't had a variation to gain another half a dozen 5-car class 801 for the EC to cover for the half dozen shortened sets.

 

[The Ham]

Doubt it could ever match the dwell times.

Are end doors so much slower that when there's 50% more if them they are still slower?

 

[D365]

I'm still surprised the IEP contract hasn't had a variation to gain another half a dozen 5-car class 801 for the EC to cover for the half dozen shortened sets.

I believe it was because VT/EC couldn't come to an agreement with Agility Trains/DfT. Wait and see though.

 

[Domh245]

Are end doors so much slower that when there's 50% more if them they are still slower?

The problem is that from each door, you can only go in one direction, for 11.5m, stopping to let people sit down/load overhead luggage etc. With a more conventional layout, you can go in two directions from each door and then for a shorter length (I would say about 5m in each direction) so boarding will be quicker. It isn't just about the number of doors but about the throughput of each door.

And besides, we all know that passengers only ever use two doors of a train at most!

 

[CosherB]

I'd be, frankly, amazed if the Mk4 carriages are scrapped. I don't see much of a future for the 91s but the rolling stock has plenty of life left in it. 300ish 125mph carriages with plug doors, CET and recently refurbished anyone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be, frankly, amazed if the Mk4 carriages are scrapped. I don't see much of a future for the 91s but the rolling stock has plenty of life left in it. 300ish 125mph carriages with plug doors, CET and recently refurbished anyone?

I would expect all the users of Mk3s would be likely to replace them with Mk4s for precisely those kinds of feature.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Certainly ATW, perhaps Scotrail on LHCS services?

 

[ainsworth74]

The 91s are done for in my opinion. Everything would seem to suggest that they're worn out after hard decades of powering up and down the ECML. The Mk4s on the other hand I can see having a future beyond the ECML.

 

[Blindtraveler]

The better 91s, if indeed such a thing exists might have a gentle retirement replacing some 90s with certain FOCS but Im with Ainsworth here

 

[Flying Snail]

Certainly ATW, perhaps Scotrail on LHCS services?

Scotrail are committed to taking the HSTs though.

I suppose if the timing lined up there would have been the possibility of converting the electrics to use Mk4s with HST powercars, I imagine it would be a cheaper mod than the work needed on the Mk3s by a long way.

ATW will no doubt be angling for DMU replacement for the Manchester LH set and the Gerald nonsense cannot go on forever.

 

[DPWH]

There may be work for them on the Scottish sleepers; that releases 92s for export to Bulgaria. I'm struggling to think of other possible duties however.

 

[D365]

There may be work for them on the Scottish sleepers; that releases 92s for export to Bulgaria.

Bearing in mind that GBRf have been trying to get on top of teething issues, I don't think they'll be willing to go through that again. Especially considering it would be a downgrade to an older and more outdated locomotive.

 

[ainsworth74]

Scotrail are committed to taking the HSTs though.

But what about the Fife Loco Hauled? Mk4s might be a good stop-gap until the Fife Circle is wired.

There may be work for them on the Scottish sleepers; that releases 92s for export to Bulgaria. I'm struggling to think of other possible duties however.

92s are needed for their ETS, I doubt that a 91 can match it as the 92s were designed specifically to provide a huge amount of ETS for the Nightstar stock. Even if the 91s can supply the ETS I'm not sure it would be wise to put that sort of strain on them at this point in their life.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly ATW, perhaps Scotrail on LHCS services?

Might 68-hauled Mk4 stock be a better bet than ageing HSTs for the ScotRail IC services? It wasn't expected to be available when they bid, as everyone expected it to go to Anglia, but now it is...

Would also go well on the North Wales Coast.

 

[TheEdge]

Wasn't the intention once to use them for freight when not hauling passenger services? 86 replacement maybe?

I think they were designed so they could haul express freights like TPOs when not needed for passenger service. However they are in no way designed for low speed heavy freights. That the re-occurring issue with all redistribution plans for the 91s is they are the last generation of East Coast thoroughbreds. They are locos designed for long distance high speed running with minimal stops. Lots of the suggestions like the MML or GEML would see them struggle with the regular stops and lower speeds. It can be seen to a certain extent with the 90s on the GEML.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

G'day everyone,
Assuming that Virgin takes delivery of it's new class 800s / 801s on time in December 2018 can we expect to see the first IC225s going for scrap in early 2019?

The first tranche of VTEC IEPs is to replace their HSTs (bi-modes).
The second tranche (electric) replaces the 225s.

 

[theblackwatch]

But what about the Fife Loco Hauled? Mk4s might be a good stop-gap until the Fife Circle is wired.

Lots of spare DMUs up for grabs for that - 156s, 158s, 170s, 172s and 185s all up for grabs.