22 class 185 units being released by TPE - Where could they go?

[edwin_m]

I don't know. This Borders idea is growing on me. On a quick check the Borders gradient does seem more severe (long/steep) than what 158s see on other routes, contrary to what I thought in a previous post. But the main reason I think it's possible is that Transport Scotland has been willing to commit funding to resolve problems.

 

[Rapidash]

I'd be more than happy to see them down here. Wouldn't need the 1st class though. That could be turned into the Buggies, Bikes, and Bags section.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd be more than happy to see them down here. Wouldn't need the 1st class though. That could be turned into the Buggies, Bikes, and Bags section.

Don't forget surfboards!

 

[Mordac]

Don't forget surfboards!

For all the surfers in Galashiels!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

For all the surfers in Galashiels!

Ahem... I was referring to Rapidash's neck of the woods, hence quoting his post.

 

[The Ham]

I'd be more than happy to see them down here. Wouldn't need the 1st class though. That could be turned into the Buggies, Bikes, and Bags section.

185s running Devon Metro services (thinking of to Paignton) could be a semi sensible idea (other than the fuel costs) if it then allowed an extra path on the mainline.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I know TPE / First are putting a case together to take over some / all of the EMT Nottingham - Liverpool services. This was a franchise requirement and is noted in the franchise documents that TPE must put a plan together to the DfT who will decide what to do. Keeping all the 185s at Ardwick and with one TOC could prove attractive to Siemens, the ROSCO and the DfT so may get better prices and prove attractive.

Either way I wouldn't be surprised if TPE look to retain all the 185s in the long run, if for no other reason to ensure sufficient capacity is provided on all 185 operated routes.

As noted further up thread, with the new train market being what it is, they may be able to batter a good deal out if the ROSCO in a few years time to keep them on.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I know TPE / First are putting a case together to take over some / all of the EMT Nottingham - Liverpool services. This was a franchise requirement and is noted in the franchise documents that TPE must put a plan together to the DfT who will decide what to do. Keeping all the 185s at Ardwick and with one TOC could prove attractive to Siemens, the ROSCO and the DfT so may get better prices and prove attractive.

Either way I wouldn't be surprised if TPE look to retain all the 185s in the long run, if for no other reason to ensure sufficient capacity is provided on all 185 operated routes.

As noted further up thread, with the new train market being what it is, they may be able to batter a good deal out if the ROSCO in a few years time to keep them on.

Keeping them all at TPE would have the advantage of just perhaps allowing more 6-car services on the semi-fasts via Huddersfield (platform lengths/unit deselect permitting of course).

 

[Whistler40145]

Exactly, why mess around, FTPE should keep all the Class 185s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Exactly, why mess around, FTPE should keep all the Class 185s.

The only downside being the DfT/the Treasury having to take a hit on the premium they're expecting from First!

 

[Rich McLean]

As the 185s can't take advantage of Sprinter speed differentials they would be best used on main line services where that is less important.

I would suggest using them on the GWR services that the short HSTs are intended for: Cardiff-Bristol-Taunton-Exeter-Plymouth-Penzance. Pairs of 185s would give a good capacity uplift and the fleet size requirement almost exactly matches the 22 sets available.

Agreed, but someone in Fleet Management in GWR has ruled it out as they are too expensive to run (ignoring the lease costs).

This will be the case with many franchises

 

[smiffy9373]

I can't see that a 185 is more expensive to run than 2 HST power cars, not that I want the HSTs to go. The only part of the Devon / Cornwall with the differential speed would be Largin viaduct 40/55MU and that's only half a mile!

 

[Philip]

Even if Liverpool-Norwich isn't split at Nottingham and TPE don't take over the route, you could use 185s to provide an extra hourly fast Manchester-Sheffield service. Does the Chinley-Dore line have enough capacity to allow this? I guess another idea could be to give Blaclpool-York to TPE, free up 195s and run the service with 185s.

 

[Rich McLean]

I can't see that a 185 is more expensive to run than 2 HST power cars, not that I want the HSTs to go. The only part of the Devon / Cornwall with the differential speed would be Largin viaduct 40/55MU and that's only half a mile!

That plan has been put on hold now. There is a new plan for 11 x 2+8 HST sets to head to XC, in exchange for 11 x 220s or 221s to head to GWR, awaiting DfT approval, and maybe revealed in the AXC Direct Award as a quick win solution, especially as the Direct Award for XC is pretty much confirmed to be zero growth (no joke), so no additional stock will be brought in.

If the above goes ahead, the Voyagers will work Cardiff - Taunton and Plymouth - Penzance (alongside 150/2's), along with a few through services each day.

However, the plan has changed so many times, I will believe it when I see it

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even if Liverpool-Norwich isn't split at Nottingham and TPE don't take over the route, you could use 185s to provide an extra hourly fast Manchester-Sheffield service. Does the Chinley-Dore line have enough capacity to allow this? I guess another idea could be to give Blaclpool-York to TPE, free up 195s and run the service with 185s.

There is no real need until the other services are at maximum length.

 

[Haydn1971]

There is no real need until the other services are at maximum length.

Tell that to people who use busier intermediate stations like Chinley and Dore who have about two semi-fast trains to choose from each morning and evening peak.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

That plan has been put on hold now. There is a new plan for 11 x 2+8 HST sets to head to XC, in exchange for 11 x 220s or 221s to head to GWR, awaiting DfT approval, and maybe revealed in the AXC Direct Award as a quick win solution, especially as the Direct Award for XC is pretty much confirmed to be zero growth (no joke), so no additional stock will be brought in.

If the above goes ahead, the Voyagers will work Cardiff - Taunton and Plymouth - Penzance (alongside 150/2's), along with a few through services each day.

However, the plan has changed so many times, I will believe it when I see it

That could be fun for stormy days at Dawlish

 

[edwin_m]

Extra Manchester-Sheffield fast paths would need the Dore redoubling and perhaps other infrastructure work too. But as the hourly TPE working will continue to be a 185 it could be strengthened to six cars, perhaps attaching/detaching en route. This would increase the fast capacity from 7 coaches per hour to 10. Can unit deselect be used to maintain the peak calls at smaller stations if the platforms are too short, or is this only allowed if the deselected unit is empty?

 

[Rapidash]

That plan has been put on hold now. There is a new plan for 11 x 2+8 HST sets to head to XC, in exchange for 11 x 220s or 221s to head to GWR, awaiting DfT approval, and maybe revealed in the AXC Direct Award as a quick win solution, especially as the Direct Award for XC is pretty much confirmed to be zero growth (no joke), so no additional stock will be brought in.

If the above goes ahead, the Voyagers will work Cardiff - Taunton and Plymouth - Penzance (alongside 150/2's), along with a few through services each day.

However, the plan has changed so many times, I will believe it when I see it

Thats certainly disappointing if true.

From the point of view of someone who uses these services daily, it kinda feels like the West side of GWR are getting the short end of the stick with these cascades up North.

As you say though, theres been so many plans scuppered at this point, its probably best to just wait and see. Or possibly just cry in a corner.

 

[northwichcat]

Thats certainly disappointing if true.

I wouldn't be disappointed if Sprinters up here got replaced by Voyagers, as long as there wasn't a seating capacity reduction as a result of the change. In fact if it happens I wouldn't be surprised if we hear complaints about Northerners being stuck with your old noisy Sprinters, while you get modern, faster, air conditioned stock.

 

[Rapidash]

I wouldn't be disappointed if Sprinters up here got replaced by Voyagers, as long as there wasn't a seating capacity reduction as a result of the change. In fact if it happens I wouldn't be surprised if we hear complaints about Northerners being stuck with your old noisy Sprinters, while you get modern, faster, air conditioned stock.

First time for everything, eh?

Its less the Voyagers, and more the plans just constantly being changed about - either the goalposts keep getting changed by the DFT, theres a sudden glut of DMU's from Anglia, or Northern needs things quicker.

I'd rather have the Sprinters off IC work entirely and help strengthen the Metro services. Doesnt seem to happening, though.

Anyway, about those 185's, hahah......

 

[PHILIPE]

Voyagers maintenance is undertaken at their dedicated Depot at Central Rivers and all, both XC and VT West Coast diagrams cycle round so that they can visit overnight with fairly easy access, i.e. Birmingham New St. If any were to go to GWR they would be too remote and I'm sure it would hardly be cost effective to build another Depot somewhere on GWR Territory.

 

[Whistler40145]

I agree PHILIPE, not a cost effective idea to move Voyagers to GWR and build a purpose built servicing facility.

 

[edwin_m]

I agree PHILIPE, not a cost effective idea to move Voyagers to GWR and build a purpose built servicing facility.

If there's a good enough reason then I'm sure one of the existing depots could be converted, perhaps returning them to Central Rivers for the heaviest maintenance. Just as the owners of the 185s would be willing to look at maintaining them away from existing locations and even by someone other than Siemens, if the alternative is them going off lease.

 

[Rapidash]

Laira is going to be underused soon, I believe? Or did they find some work for it?

 

[ABB125]

Voyagers maintenance is undertaken at their dedicated Depot at Central Rivers and all, both XC and VT West Coast diagrams cycle round so that they can visit overnight with fairly easy access, i.e. Birmingham New St. If any were to go to GWR they would be too remote and I'm sure it would hardly be cost effective to build another Depot somewhere on GWR Territory.

Perhaps there could be a shared fleet (with dual branding and livery ) so that the GWR units could return to Central Rivers in the evening.

I quite like the idea of XC having more HSTs, it might mean that they will be going in the right direction when I travel . However, I expect there would be pathing issues. Would the GWR units be 4 car ones?

However, this is all slightly off topic.

 

[Haydn1971]

Perhaps there could be a shared fleet (with dual branding and livery ) so that the GWR units could return to Central Rivers in the evening.

Perhaps paint them dark blue and white, with a yellow feature panel at the front... Call them, Erm... British Rail ?

Just teasing

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tell that to people who use busier intermediate stations like Chinley and Dore who have about two semi-fast trains to choose from each morning and evening peak.

Of what relevance are Chinley and Dore to a "fast service from Sheffield to Manchester" as the OP suggested?

An additional *semifast* may be justified, I suppose. But as for Chinley, if you choose to live in the middle of nowhere and commute to a city some way away, you choose an infrequent train service. If I was going to do something for Chinley it'd be to rebuild the station with a bay and extend the New Mills terminator.

Dore is a difficult one, it may be better served additionally by bus, as really it's a city station requiring of a frequent service not required by the rest of the line.

 

[Whistler40145]

Sounds like a great idea to build a bay platform at Chinley and extend the Manchester Piccadilly to New Mills stopping service.

 

[The Planner]

Would have to be no growth if that was the plan, which I am sceptical of, as you are slowing all the XC services down.